I dunno, the fact that everyone else on the list has last names starting with “A” makes me wonder if perhaps more players should be on that list.

Hmm, good point.  This is what happens when I blog when I should be asleep.  Mo is not the oldest, it’s Satchel Paige.  New table coming soon.

More trivia:

As we all learned this week, Mariano Rivera still does not have a hit.  Will he become the first Major League player to enter the Hall of Fame without a hit?

I did a quick search of current HoF memebers.  These are the lowest hit totals that I could find.

Bruce Sutter   9
Goose Gossage   9
Rollie Fingers 10

Possible Future HoFers:

Trevor Hoffman 4
Lee Smith
Jack Morris   0

I realize that at this point Morris is a long shot to get in, but he was the only hitless player I could find with even a remote chance.

Have I missed anyone?

Other being a modern day closer, the only ways I could imagine a player getting into the HOF without a hit would be to be as an American League pitcher who started his career after 1972 and finished before interleague play began in 1998 or a Negro Leaguer or manager who had a short stint as a player.  Even Tom Lasorda got a hit in the majors (May 16, 1956 in Baltimore as a pitcher for the Kansas City Athletics).

Addenda:

Lee Smith: 3 hits.

Wang actually looked pretty bad to me.  Happily the Mets are a disaster right now.

The Mets need to be euthanized.  That lineup is scary bad.  With Jerry Manuel giving outs away on top of it all…yeah.  They need to be put down.

Wang looked pretty bad to me also.  He’s just not a sinker ball pitcher anymore, no matter what the GO/FO might look like.  Way too many fastballs up in the zone with little movement on them.  A major league lineup would have destroyed him.

Bad as they are, the Mets are only 2.5 games out of first in the NL East.

I’ll echo the sentiment that Wang wasn’t good.  I really don’t trust him at all.  I’d rather Hughes start, and Wang try to figure it out as the long man.

I didn’t see Wang last night, only Gamecasted it, but in his previous start when he wasn’t working from the stretch, his sinker seemed to work pretty well.  He flattened right out as soon as runners were on, though.

I prefer Hughes working out of the bullpen in the majors right now rather than starting in the minors.  He seems really comfortable, his stuff looks great, and he’s helping the big club win.  Ultimately, he’s going to have to get major leaguers out for seven innings at a time, and he’ll have to keep refining that hook of his to do so…I don’t think minor-league hitters have much left to teach him in that regard, and I think it could develop into a truly filthy pitch.  Letting him uncork seems great for his confidence.  I don’t worry so much about the “stretching out” part of it…like many others here, I think they’ll be able to get him to his innings targets by mixing and matching with him, Joba, and Pettitte/Wang’s injuries and/or ineffectiveness.

There is no way that Hughes isn’t one of their five best starters. If Wang (and/or Pettitte) doesn’t start pitching well on a consistent basis,  Hughes needs to be in the rotation right after the AS break.

It’s too bad interleague play is over. I was starting to like it.

Wang actually looked pretty bad to me

Wang looked pretty bad to me also.

I’ll echo the sentiment that Wang wasn’t good.

OK, I’ll defer to the consensus.  I thought he was ok, not as good as he looked against Atlanta, but he was effective until the fourth, when he was probably getting tired.

There is no way that Hughes isn’t one of their five best starters.

Well, it depends on how much Hughes the starter can pitch like Hughes the reliever.  He won’t be throwing as hard as a starter, and he won’t be facing batters just once so he’ll need to have better results with his cutter and changeup.  I’m not so sure that Hughes as a starter right now would be demonstrably more effective than Wang or Pettitte will be going forward.  I do agree that Hughes should be starting at some point soon though, be it in the majors or in AAA.

It’s too bad interleague play is over. I was starting to like it.

Yeah, I started warming up to it too.

I think DaPuj asked in the last thread when was the last time a pitcher earned an RBI and a save in the same game.  That’s a pretty hard thing to accomplish.  I’d imagine it would likely come from someone earning a save the non-traditional way by throwing the last 3 innings of a win.

Off days blow.

i blame minaya more than manuel for the mets losses, and can’t really get any satisfaction from beating up on the NY AAAA. They just looked pathetic last night.

Yeah, I was thinking: (getting save AND having a PA) * (pitcher getting RBI) = (rare)^2

I think DaPuj asked in the last thread when was the last time a pitcher earned an RBI and a save in the same game.  That’s a pretty hard thing to accomplish.  I’d imagine it would likely come from someone earning a save the non-traditional way by throwing the last 3 innings of a win.

Mark Kotsay routinely did it at Cal State Fullerton.  He was MVP of the 1995 College World Series as as closer/first baseman.

Mariano is awesome.

indeed.

If I’m remembering correctly, Hughes as a reliever is throwing 93-94 and touching 95. Hughes as a starter was throwing 92-94 and touching 95.

I don’t see a large velocity drop there.

He should be starting.

My only complaint with Girardi is that he tends to believe players can be immediately returned to their “roles” after gettin off the dl.  I think this is the second time in a row that Bruney was put in a close 8th inning game and creates a mess that requires a four inning save by Mo.  I think Bruney should do the 8th, but not immediately after returning.  There was very little reason not to extend Hughes through the 8th. He looked very solid and very confident in the 7th.  It seems like Joe has a tendency to over manage at times.  I know that people need work, but not in one run games. Joe should manage the game in the safest/ non-risk way and Bruney is not as trustworthy at this juncture- control wise. I will say he made some good pitches to lessen the situation, but I think Phil would have retired them in order.  Also, have to agree with not batting Cano fifth. You could almost smell those DP’s coming.

It was great that Boston finally lost to Atlanta, but you have to admit that Boston continues to get consistent pitching. They are going to be tough all season.

I share the view of those who thought Wang did not look good.  If he faced Boston, or TB or any of a number of teams he would have been crushed and its pretty clear right now that hughes is a far better option than won’t be excercised until disaster has struk more then once.

Also the offense was far worse then the box score indicates.  Pelfrey was done in by his defense.  Against Redding, Livan and an assortment of mostly not good relievers we managed one exactly good offensive inning.

SG,

I could be wrong, but I think the reason Wang looked pretty good is that he was facing “David Wright and the Replacements” last night.  That lineup is bad.

He did get some groundballs, and if I recall correctly, he K’d Wright on a nice slider.  But he was also up in the zone a lot, with lateral instead of vertical movement.  I think a decent offense would’ve taken advantage and pounded him.

Re: Cano and his DPs… it’s driving me nuts too.  I don’t know that moving Po up and Cano down one spot would make a big difference (it’s not like Po doesn’t hit into some DPs), but it would make me feel better.

According to fangraphs, Hughes’ average fastball velocity this season is 92.7 mph.  According to gameday, Hughes threw 13 fastballs last night— two of them were 93 mph, five were 94, and six were 95.  He threw 14 fastballs in his previous outing against Atlanta—one each at 92 and 93, five at 94, four at 95, and three at 96.  I think it’s safe to say that he’s throwing a tick harder out of the pen.

bebop,

To be fair to the Yankees offense, there was an inning last night wherein they hit three straight line drives.  All three were right at people, so they were retired in order on less than 10 pitches (I think).  Damon hit a ball hard in the 9th apparently (at that point I was listening on the radio) that was caught.  Cano’s hard groundballs had no eyes.  And so forth.

There was very little reason not to extend Hughes through the 8th.

Well, except for the whole “pinch hit for him and try to score a few more runs” thing.

Also the offense was far worse then the box score indicates.  Pelfrey was done in by his defense.  Against Redding, Livan and an assortment of mostly not good relievers we managed one exactly good offensive inning.

I don’t know, I thought the offense did pretty well last night.  They easily could have scored 8+ runs in that game with a bounce here or there.  There were a lot, and I mean, a lot of hard hit balls that went straight to an OF or to Castillo.  The biggest problem was that they were walking a ton, but couldn’t drive the runs in.  11 BB’s in one game is nuts.

Hell, even Wang hit a ball hard.  It was, of course, caught.

Since Wang is starting, these past couple of games is ideal. So so lineup, with just enough legit hitters to test him but not enough to do major damage. Wang has shown some improvement, and I’m hoping he’ll keep progressing.

It sucks that Hughes isn’t starting, but I’m cool with him in the pen contributing rather than starting in the minors. He should go 2+ innings though.

Wang needs to get more sink on his hits, too.

I could be wrong, but I think the reason Wang looked pretty good is that he was facing “David Wright and the Replacements” last night.  That lineup is bad.  

No doubt that helped tremendously.  That same stuff against Boston or Tampa probably would have been destroyed.

I just refuse to believe that Wang is washed up at age 29.  He didn’t get to work his legs this offseason and what we need to look at now is if the work he’s getting is helping him get his conditioning back up to where it should be.  I think that’s happening, agonizingly slowly, but happening.

However CC, AJ and the bullpen were great other then Bruney’s walks.  Did they ever show Tex’s “strikeout” replay at a better angle.  ESPN really makes me miss YES and of the three guys last night Phillips was actually the least annoying.  I’ll take everyone’s word that our hitters were somewhat unlucky last night maybe its the cumulative effect of so many wasted chances with RISP in the last weeks that makes me overreact.

I loved Miller’s suggestion that A-Rod should go to CF when he can’t play 3B anymore.  Yeah, that makes sense.

“Also the offense was far worse then the box score indicates.  Pelfrey was done in by his defense.  Against Redding, Livan and an assortment of mostly not good relievers we managed one exactly good offensive inning.”

Not sure I agree.  By my quick calculation, the Yankees put 25 balls in play last night.  They got only 4 hits, a BABIP of .160.  The day before, they also put 25 balls in play and got only 6 (non-HR) hits (.240).  “Good offensive innings” are going to be hard to come by with baseballs finding leather at that rate.

I just refuse to believe that Wang is washed up at age 29.  He didn’t get to work his legs this offseason and what we need to look at now is if the work he’s getting is helping him get his conditioning back up to where it should be.  I think that’s happening, agonizingly slowly, but happening.

Can he catch up on offseason conditioning on the fly? Maybe leg stuff… Essentially the Sox are starting Matsuzaka’s offseason over with a planned return for Sept 1. Of course, in his case his excuse for not doing his offseason strengthening isn’t as solid… seems to have blown it off, believing that Japanese shoulders aren’t the same as western ones.

Anyway, perhaps it’s apples and oranges. Leg strength isn’t as delicate a matter as shoulder strength, I’d imagine. You’re talking pure conditioning rather than torque resistance or some such thingy.

And to clarify, Wang doesn’t remind me of Matsuzaka because they’re both Asian. It’s because they’re neighbors at the bottom of the ERA+ chart.

“Of course, in his case his excuse for not doing his offseason strengthening”

Hey, is that the explanation?  I figured he was hurt.  And how did that come out?  It’s under-the-bus-throwing, no?

Someone used the term hypo-busification or something like that.  I thought it was fairly amusing.

To me it sort of seems that Matsuzaka is only slightly less effective than normal, but not nearly as lucky as he was last season.  The combination has made him look a lot worse.

I just refuse to believe that Wang is washed up at age 29.

I’d say there’s a difference between thinking that he’s not the best option right now and thinking that he’s washed up.  I don’t think he’s toast, either, but I do think that he’s not the same pitcher.  Like I said, his fastball is often up with little movement, and many of the better pitches he’s made the last couple of games have been sliders.  In the long run, maybe he comes out of this as a more complete pitcher instead of just a ground ball machine. 

He didn’t get to work his legs this offseason and what we need to look at now is if the work he’s getting is helping him get his conditioning back up to where it should be.

I don’t know if pitching every five days is the best way for him to get his legs back.  One might naively think that an intensive running program might do more in that regard.  And if this is Wang’s real spring training, then it probably would be better if he wasn’t doing it in actual major league games.

In isolation, Hughes should be starting over Wang.  If you HAD to go with one of them in game 7 of the WS, it would be Hughes.

BUT, what you lose in Wang<Hughes, you gain in:  1) trying to rebuild Wang, 2) Keeping Hughes’ innings down, and 3) having an extra SP ready to go if there’s an injury. 

If you switch out Wang and Hughes now, you probably lose the SP Wang for the season.  That’s POOMA, but he would probably take the demotion hard (“I just beat the mets!”), etc etc.  Hughes knows his time will come, and thus it’s easier to keep him in the pen.

And how did that come out?  It’s under-the-bus-throwing, no?

Globe reported it, and they’re the not-so-subtle team mouthpiece, so apparently it’s the official line. He didn’t do his offseason program. He’s a quirky, stubborn guy, though apparently he admitted he messed up so lesson learned.

I don’t know if pitching every five days is the best way for him to get his legs back.  One might naively think that an intensive running program might do more in that regard.

I guess I have the same question. Usually endurance is the result of a slow, careful program, starting with building a wide base at lower intensity and working your way up. But it’s not all-or-nothing; it’s merely the best way. Maybe the Yankees think they can squeeze 20-25 starts of middlin (or better) quality out of Wang through a poor program where he has to catch up on the fly, and start him over properly in the winter? With arm strength I am guessing (POOMA) that you really can’t do this, but with leg muscle endurance maybe you can.

“He didn’t do his offseason program.”

Do teams not check up on players during the off-season?  And do contracts not have minimum off-season requirements along with the usual skydiving etc. prohibitions?

Wang’s recovery seems a work in progress, but I also think he is improving.  He will need to get his legs back, but that’s conditioning for you- I have no idea how difficult that is or what it would entail.

I always recommend exercise biking while playing video games, but actual trainers may disagree.

I always recommend exercise biking while playing video games

If I had a exercise bike I’d totally do that while injured.

To make your fortune: design a first-person-shooter wherein the player’s speed of movement is tied directly to how fast he/she is pedaling an exercise bike, and orient the levels for a proper training regime.

the result of a slow, careful program, starting with building a wide base at lower intensity and working your way up. But it’s not all-or-nothing; it’s merely the best way.

Another dig on asians?

I’m just kidding. But you have to admit, that link has an only-in-China quality to it?

I should add that I did not to imply anything against Chinese/Asians. To me, the funny in the link has more to do with breakneck modernization/globalization/greed and lax regulations.

lax regulations

My personal feeling is that lacrosse should be regulated right out of existence.

My personal feeling is that lacrosse should be regulated right out of existence.

Not a fan of the seven sister schools, huh?

Wang seemed to have been making positive baby steps when he was slotted into middle relief a while back.  I would have liked them to extend such outings by increasing his max pitch counts.  Instead, they plugged him back into the rotation, in my opinion, a little early.
Yes, his stuff was below average last night, but there were signs that his sinker was getting back to where it once was.  He left a lot up, but not as much as he did earlier in the season.

Actually, I don’t mind women’s lacrosse too much, and might soften my stance on the men’s version slightly if they were to dispense with all those pads and the goofy x-games helmets.

Do teams not check up on players during the off-season? 

Apparently it’s harder than it sounds, when distant rock-star/prima donna pitchers who don’t speak much English are involved.

I kid… somewhat. If he didn’t listen to his team, he’s an idiot, though if the Pravda… er, Globe story is to be believed he learned his lesson.

I’m just kidding. But you have to admit, that link has an only-in-China quality to it?

Um… holy shit! China has a long history of this sort of thing, is my understanding. I once landed at the old Hong Kong airport, when international flights had to bank their way into a narrow slot over squatter-inhabitat mini-skyscrapers in Kowloon. Only after we landed did it occur to me how ridiculous it was. But my local friend told me that the squatters were very popular because you could get all sorts of unregulated services in the building. Apparently the best dentists in town were there.

So yeah, slag away at China. But just them; their neighbors tend to be more orderly than most US cities.

To make your fortune: design a first-person-shooter wherein the player’s speed of movement is tied directly to how fast he/she is pedaling an exercise bike, and orient the levels for a proper training regime.

Yeah, because FPS players really want to exercise while they mercilessly blow the shit out of each other.

Wasn’t that building well-constructed (mostly) to be able to fall over like that in one piece?  There are serious stresses in rigid toppling.

More on the Hughes usage calculation - at RAB it’s claimed that his cap this year is 180.  That makes it seem more rather than less reasonable to me to have him in the bullpen, perhaps until Joba has used up his innings.

[56] Judging from the photos is looks like poor foundation design.  I’d imagine a good geotechnical engineer can fetch a pretty good salary given Shanghai’s difficult subsurface.

“Shanghai’s difficult subsurface”

What is it, jello?  Sticky rice?  Jenga blocks?

[57] If Hughes innings cap is 180, and let’s say he needs to get 160 or 170 to be able to be turned completely loose next season as a starter with no cap, then his current usage rate is going to fall waayyy short of that.

If they increase his usage out of the pen (which they should anyways because he is their best non-Mo option out there), I will stop complaining. But he pitched a grand total of 12 innings in June. If he continues at that rate, he will finish the season with 102 IP.

What is it, jello?  Sticky rice?  Jenga blocks?

The standard China joke there’d be cardboard.

at RAB it’s claimed that his cap this year is 180

Based on what?

let’s say he needs to get 160 or 170 to be able to be turned completely loose next season as a starter with no cap

Based on what?

he will finish the season with 102 IP

Based on what?  Seriously, (12 x 3) + what he’s already pitched isn’t a particularly good way to estimate his season total.  He wasn’t used at all for a week after his last start; that isn’t likely to be repeated unless it’s to rest him up for a return to the rotation.  So 12 innings per 3 weeks is a more accurate measuere of his use as a reliever.  Accounting for the all-star break, there’s a bit more than 13 weeks left in the season, so 50 more innings is a much better guess than 36 for what he’d throw as a reliever the rest of the way.  Plus, hopefully, some playoff innings.

[57] If Hughes innings cap is 180, and let’s say he needs to get 160 or 170 to be able to be turned completely loose next season as a starter with no cap, then his current usage rate is going to fall waayyy short of that.

I don’t care about next year until the Yankees are either comfortably in first place or with a sure lock on the wild card.

I definitely agree to increase usage in the pen.

Though my take is that Hughes stays in the pen as long as the Yankees are looking up at the Red Sox. Since he’s there, probably the brains behind the team will realize his value and use him often.  When the Yankees get comfortably ahead, assuming the rest of the pen rounds in shape, maybe Hughes get sent down to stretch out a bit. Or by then, a spot opens up temporarily in the rotation.

Otherwise, next year is next year.

Plus winter league I think.

The 180 is based on, I suppose, his 146 IP in 2006.

I guess my point is I care more about stretching out Hughes than worrying about Wang’s mental state, because I figure Wang doesn’t have much of a future with the team. Isn’t next season Wang’s last arbitration year? Management has made no indication that he is in the long term plans.

I figure Wang doesn’t have much of a future with the team.

I hope you figure wrong. A healthy Tiger Wang is a very good pitcher and the Yankees should want to have him.

Yeah, a healthy CMW would be pretty sweet.

Healthy Wang is always a good thing.

19 wins two years in a row and well on his way in a third before a freak FOOT injury.  He never was a top-flight Ace and probably never will be but if Wang can get back to where he was- which he should be able to do since he’s only 29-he most certainly is in the teams LT plans.  If by LT you mean the next 6-8 years.  I would love a rotation of CC, Joba, Burnett, Hughes, and Wang for the next 5 years.

I’m not sure how much of it was intentional and how much was his stuff just being off. but last night he had a lot of FBs that was obviously the 4 seam variety. a lot of it seems well located (up and in) I wonder if that’s by design or if it’s his sinkers just really not sinking at all.

The increased K rate is somewhat encouraging though.

I would love a rotation of CC, Joba, Burnett, Hughes, and Wang for the next 5 years.

I think if Wang can get respectable again there is an excellent chance he is traded this off-season.  No, really.  There are still preconditions that need to be met.  Joba getting enough innings this year to be able to throw 180+ innings next year, Hughes getting enough to throw 160+ next year, and Pettitte showing he can still be at least league average.  And that’s at the major-league level.  In the minors they also need one (or more) of IPK, McCallister, Nova, or even a different pitcher to step up and show they are ready for emergency work in 2010 and project to be ready full time by 2011.

See, here’s the thing with keeping Wang.  You have CC for at least 2 more (and hopefully 6 or more) years.  AJ for 4 more.  Joba at least 4 more, ditto Hughes.  So there is one spot left for probably the next 4 years.  There are some young, cheap replacements coming - some like Brackman will have to be on the ML roster sooner rather than later - who will *not* be on the downswing of their careers.  If Pettitte can give one more year of 180+ league-average innings, why not see if you can get a top prospect and then some for Wang this off-season?

Isn’t next season Wang’s last arbitration year?

No.  He was a super-two, so he’ll have four arb years.  Not a free agent until after 2011.

Don’t you need Wang for protection against CC then?

And if [72] is correct, that’s cool. So it basically comes down to Wang vs Pettitte? Wang is a pretty good chip to try to pry new future SS, I guess.  Or, maybe the IPK, Brackman, McCallister, Nova type will be a better chip, being cost controlled longer.

Wang is a pretty good chip to try to pry new future SS, I guess.  Or, maybe the IPK, Brackman, McCallister, Nova type will be a better chip, being cost controlled longer.

Or maybe Wang+ one or more of those guys.  A lot of what will happen with Wang will be determined this season I think.  Both with how he does and others.  He may be one of the most attractive trade-chips the Yankees have this winter, he could be re-signed to a multi-year contract to be a mid-rotation pitcher, or he could be moved to the pen full-time.  I don’t think anyone knows at this point, even Cashman.  I wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded though.  Heck, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded next month, honestly.  Certainly not expecting it, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he was traded next month, honestly.  Certainly not expecting it, but I wouldn’t be surprised.

I would be surprised. Because his value is likely to still be quite depressed by then. Selling low on a guy who can be as good as Wang would be very foolish.

But I’m a big Wang fanboy, so take that with a grain of salt.

I would be very surprised if Wang were traded during the season.  But of course, if he throws 21 innings and allows 5 ER in his next three starts, then they probably wouldn’t be selling low anymore.

Wang’s value is about as low as it can be right now.  I can’t see the Yankees getting enough back to warrant trading him right now, especially given the potential upside if they can ‘fix’ him.

Wang’s value is about as low as it can be right now.  I can’t see the Yankees getting enough back to warrant trading him right now, especially given the potential upside if they can ‘fix’ him.

No, now no.  As MC pointed out, if (and it is a big IF) he throws three or four good starts his value will climb quite a bit.  And they’d have Hughes - hopefully still pitching well - at a point where he would have little restrictions for innings going forward.  And again, I pointed out I wasn’t “expecting” it, but I also wouldn’t be surprised.  As opposed to say, I would be surprised if they traded Hughes.

Four possibilities with Wang (in order of probability).  1) Pitches like he has the past few times out.  Probably keep him in the rotation and hope he gets better. 2) Pitches worse, and he is DL’d/banished to the pen. 3) Pitches like CMW, and returns to being a trusted starter.  4) Pitches like CMW and is traded for something of value.