So he’s probably going to return to the pen?  Does this mean he’s going to be used as a temporary long man to transition him back to a starter?  Constantly flip-flopping his role I don’t think can be good for the health of his arm.

So he’s probably going to return to the pen?  Does this mean he’s going to be used as a temporary long man to transition him back to a starter?  Constantly flip-flopping his role I don’t think can be good for the health of his arm.

I don’t think they’ve planned that far ahead.  Something that I certainly *could* see happening, is to bring up Hughes and let Hughes pitch five-innings, and let Joba go the next 4, and assuming everyone comes out of that OK Joba goes back in the rotation.  Initially limited to like 80 pitches or something.

A lot of that of course will be dependent on how the Yankees (and other teams) do in the coming weeks.  If somehow the Yanks are only 3 back on, oh, Thursday, you don’t want to hamstring your manager.  If they’re instead 8 or 9 out, there won’t be those concerns.

f somehow the Yanks are only 3 back on, oh, Thursday, you don’t want to hamstring your manager.  If they’re instead 8 or 9 out, there won’t be those concerns.

Wait a minute, you mean, they still have games left? I thought the season was over? Wait let me look at the calendar. Oh crap, there’s like, a month left!

Just let him come back and pitch 4, 5, 6 whatever innings.  He starts and pitches up to whenever he can.  There is no point returning him to the bullpen except to breed who will pitch teh eighth hysteria.

It would be nice to have him pitch at least a couple games this year, so he is not answering the questions all next preseason.

Why not let Joba start, go 4 (shutout) innings, then let Moose come in and vulture a win on his way to 20!

Why not let Joba start, go 4 (shutout) innings, then let Moose come in and vulture a win on his way to 20!

I was thinking about how to vulture Moose a couple of wins on his throw days while driving into the office today.  I love this idea.

Yes, great idea, because no one would notice a carrer starter, possible HOF, entering the game in the 5th inning for a chance of a 20 win season. HOF voters are dumb but they are not that stupid.

HOF voters are dumb but they are not that stupid.

A lot of these voters do absolutely no research in looking up players. A couple of years ago a guy said he was going to vote for Molitor because he won a Gold Glove at four positions. These people, in general, do not take their job very seriously.

Mussina’s performance has been the most enjoyable thing about the Yankee season for me.  Whether he wins 20 or not, he is essentially pitching like a #1 or #2 starter - which is absolutely incredible given where he was last year.

These people, in general, do not take their job very seriously.

Yeah, probably about a quarter of them do the quick-check (hmm, Mussina has 298 wins?  Out!)  About a quarter do the memory check (I remember Moose was a pretty good pitcher, but he never won a WS!  Out!)  I think the other half take it seriously.  They may not always make good decisions - sometimes in fact downright stupid ones - but they’re serious about it.

If Moose doesn’t make it to 300 (and as of now it sure seems like he has a great shot, doesn’t it?), I think the question of whether or not he’s in the Hall will be how the voting membership changes over the next 5-20 years.

Oh crap, there’s like, a month left!

Heh.  I’m still holding out hope that the month left has several “Yankees Classic” games, as they mount an improbable comeback.  Unfortunately, more and more it seems like the above statement would be followed by, “Do I have to watch?”  I think most of our DNA would be programmed to watch even if they lost every single game.

Watch?  Probably not.
Follow daily?  Inevitably.

You kidding me?  I’m still going to watch as many games as possible.  Because: in just over a month, no baseball for like forever (almost 6 months)!  With no pressure of a pennant race, we can just enjoy each game individually, without much worrying about what it means in the grand scheme of things. It’s time to learn how the other half lives.

Because: in just over a month, no baseball for like forever (almost 6 months)!

Well said.

Other half = other 80%.

I agree though.  I’m sort of glad they’re “out of it” as opposed to being “mostly out of it”.  Now the losses won’t hurt as much, the wins won’t be as much fun, but I could stand a little stability right now.

I like that they’re out of it because it allows them to prepare for next year, by playing young guys in low pressure situations and getting some real Major League playing time under their belts. It’s been a while since they could give young guys who will actually matter for the future a taste of the Majors.

I’d prefer that they were in the race or so far ahead that they could do this, but really, playing balls to the wall in the hopes of a miracle isn’t a good way to manage this team right now and I hope the Yanks figure this out if they haven’t already.

And I will watch as many games as I can before the season ends.

Oh, and hey, Pavano is starting tonight!  Things that are rare mean that they’re good, right?  A Pavano start would qualify as rare.

Definitely rare. I’m actually one of the few who has seen Pavano pitch live and in person! And WIN! Talk about how rare that is.

I like that they’re out of it because it allows them to prepare for next year

I don´t like they are out of it. I am depressed that I’m going to watch 29 meaningless ballgames and then wait 6 months to watch baseball again.

I don´t like they are out of it.

I think what we’re saying is that we’d rather be “out of it” than “nearly out of it with very little chance of being in it”.  Of course we’d rather be a game behind the RS or a couple games up in the wildcard.  But if they’re going to lose anyway, I’d rather not be teased along for these three weeks.  Let me just enjoy some baseball.

I enjoy baseball more when the games mean more, I’d rather finish the season 2 games behind the Sox than watching the last 10 games knowing they don’t have a chance.

HOF voters are dumb but they are not that stupid.

They most certainly are every bit as stupid as we could possibly imagine them to be, but that’s almost besides the point.

On Saturday, September 27, 1997, Randy Johnson entered in the sixth inning of a meaningless game with his team leading 7-2.  He pitched two innings to vulture his 20th win of the season.  It was the first time in his career that he’d won 20, and he would not win 20 again until 2001.

That’s just one example.  This kind of thing is not exactly rare in the history of major league baseball.

[9] I would argue that they take their job very very seriously, but don’t do it very well.

On Saturday, September 27, 1997, Randy Johnson entered in the sixth inning of a meaningless game with his team leading 7-2.  He pitched two innings to vulture his 20th win of the season.

Shouldn’t that be the fifth inning for it to work? Otherwise, he must have stunk up the joint, allowed the other team to at least tie, and his team would score in the next inning for him to get the win, no?

It was the fifth.  Johnson pitched the fifth and sixth, cheating Omar Oliveras out of a well-earned win.

I propose Yankees do this with every Pavano/Ponson start, then, as long as Moose can go an inning or so.  I don’t care if it’s fair or not, Mussina still deserves those Ws more than Sir Snacks and Mr Glass Ass do, even if they happen to be pitching perfect games at the time.

I guess they’ll Jobaize the bullpen his first few times back, then give him a couple of starts.

With roster additions on Sep. 1, they’ll have extra bullpen arms outside of Joba, so probably just his first two re-appearances is my guess, and then back as a starter.

I think what we’re saying is that we’d rather be “out of it” than “nearly out of it with very little chance of being in it”.  Of course we’d rather be a game behind the RS or a couple games up in the wildcard.  But if they’re going to lose anyway, I’d rather not be teased along for these three weeks.  Let me just enjoy some baseball.

They’re not out of it until they’re mathematically eliminated, as far as I’m concerned.  Don’t count me as one who’d rather not be “teased” by hope for my team.  There’s still enough talent on the Yankees to catch fire and put together a run like they did around the All Star break, and then suddenly they’re right back in it.

At the very least, they’re capable of shaving three games off the Red Sox’ lead between now and the final series in Boston to make those last games meaningful.

And we’re so concerned about 2009 that we’re now looking forward to playing “young guys in low pressure situations?”  As if the Yankees haven’t been playing any and every capable young player this year.  As if they didn’t hold firm against dealing prospects for Santana or Sabathia.  2009 has been plenty well taken care of this year.

Did the Giants not just beat Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay ON THE ROAD, then beat an undefeated Patriots team in the Super Bowl?  What were odds of that happening?

It was a Yankee who said “It ain’t over till it’s over,” and 2008 ain’t over. 

Let’s go Yankees.

Anyone for not bringing Moose back in 2009?

The old baseball line: Better to trade a player a year early than a year late. While no trade is involved here, a new deal is. So should they offer Mussina a deal or not?

Did the Giants not just beat Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay ON THE ROAD, then beat an undefeated Patriots team in the Super Bowl?  What were odds of that happening?

Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?!

Sarah Palin, moose hunter. Hmmmmm.

I think that a few buttons should be added to the smiley’s tab, for “was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor”, “who will pitch teh eighth!@!@111!!”, and “Moooooooose”.  Might save us some time.

Puj, are you accusing me of excessive cliche use?

The crazy 14-13 game against the Rangers is on Yankees Classics.  The ultimate “It ain’t over till it’s over”?

There’s still enough talent on the Yankees to catch fire and put together a run like they did around the All Star break, and then suddenly they’re right back in it.

There is? They have one good starting pitcher now, not two or three. Pettitte looks worn out. Joba and Hughes are a long way away for them to bring it together in 29 games.

So should they offer Mussina a deal or not?

Absolutely. He’s been studly two of the last three years. His peripherals are great (he’s not striking out a ton, but he’s 3rd in K/BB ratio), and they tend to predictive measures than most other things in a statistical record. He’s a better option than Pettitte and almost all of the other 2nd tier veteran guys available this year are NL guys and/or will want longer contracts.

I think Moose would come back on a one year deal.  $10 million or so?  I’d bring him back.  There’s still enough of a question about Hughes/Joba/IPK that Moose would slot in nicely behind Sabathia (yes, I want him badly) and Wang.  I wouldn’t bring back Pettitte.

Shouldn’t that be the fifth inning for it to work?

Of course, as SG noted.  Brain-lock on my part.

Mussina still deserves those Ws more than Sir Snacks and Mr Glass Ass do,

What is Mussina’s VORD (Value Over Replacement Deservee)? The last thing is a word, Firefox’s redline notwithstanding.

No doubt there are questions regarding the three young ‘uns.

Plus, as we discussed a few weeks ago, the 30+ inning matter will rear its head in 2009. Not sure how the team will approach that in 2009. I have my own recommendations regarding that.

I have my own recommendations regarding that.

Do share.

What is Mussina’s VORD (Value Over Replacement Deservee)?

Last I checked, it was 73.1, but it might’ve gone up a notch after yesterday’s start.

Did the Giants not just beat Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay ON THE ROAD, then beat an undefeated Patriots team in the Super Bowl?  What were odds of that happening?

Also, could we stop acting like the NFL and MLB are remotely similar in this regard? The NFL playoffs is a bunch of mediocre teams playing other mediocre teams ONE time. It is not relevant to the workings of the MLB regular season. The Giants were at no point close to being as statistically out of it as the Yankees are right now.

he’s not striking out a ton

6.2 per 9 is perfectly respectable.  He’s only at 7.1 per nine for his career.

I think Moose would come back on a one year deal.  $10 million or so?  I’d bring him back.

I’d even throw in a mutual/vesting option.  Yeah, he’s going to be 40, but I don’t see much flukiness in his performance this year, and I’d really love to see him get to 300 and 3,000.  Besides, you need seven starters these days.  Sabathia, Wang, Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy, Rasner still leaves a gap in that department.

I think Moose would come back on a one year deal.  $10 million or so?  I’d bring him back.  There’s still enough of a question about Hughes/Joba/IPK that Moose would slot in nicely behind Sabathia (yes, I want him badly) and Wang.  I wouldn’t bring back Pettitte.

I was leaning the other way earlier this year, but I agree with you know. I think Andy is kind of done-ish. Plus I really like Moose.

I think the Yanks should get Joba back into the rotation, but with caution. Hughes should be up as well, although I wouldn’t mind waiting another start.

I had my last first day of college yesterday. That’s kind of terrifying. It was also 7.5 hours of class, also kind of terrifying.

Hey Clay.  I was beginning to wonder whether you’d gone back to that movie theater where you need to wear your running shoes, and forgot to wear your running shoes, or something like that.

I don’t remember my last first day of college.  Senior year was awesome, though!

I would absolutely bring Moose back.  You need one of him and Andy back to provide some depth, and at this point I trust Moose a lot more than I do Pettitte.

Hey Clay.  I was beginning to wonder whether you’d gone back to that movie theater where you need to wear your running shoes, and forgot to wear your running shoes, or something like that.

Nope, just been really busy and fed up with the Yanks. I’m doing research for a rather massive story that I want to write that will span several media and trying to get the smaller stories within that will be my senior comprehensives for my film major written. That, and worrying about ignoring my history major. I’ve also been trying to get a Monty Python-esque sketch comedy group started. Oh, and running (XC just offically started).

So, still alive. Just decided the added stress/anger of the Yankees playing like shit wasn’t really needed.

I wouldn’t mind seeing both Moose and Pettitte back next year, just for the depth. They’ve gone 10 deep in the rotation two years in a row, and I really don’t want to see them fishing Ponson out of the toilet for a third year. My gut feeling though is that Pettitte will retire. But if he does come back he’ll probably take a one year deal, so no long term committment required.

I think Andy is kind of done-ish.

Pettitte is likely done as a #2 starter.  But a #3?  He has an ERA+ of 97 currently, and I believe is on-pace for another 200+ innings.  Isn’t that your basic definition of a #3?

Anyway, I’m not exactly sure what I want.  I want CC (not at, “no matter the cost”, but…).  I want Moose back, as some said on a 1 year deal, probably with an option.  So that leaves us with CC, Wang, and Moose as the top 3.  After that, the problem is that IPK, Hughes, and Joba ALL will have innings-limits next year.  Perhaps fitting three starters into two spots is sufficient to limit them…again unless injuries/ineffectiveness crop up.  So…I can see both sides of the argument.  Get back to me in November.

As for what WILL happen (as oppose to what should), my gut says both Moose and Pettitte are back next year, in addition to CC.

I’m not saying Pettitte is totally done, but the amount of money he’ll get will likely not be worth what he delivers. I understand the need to a deep staff, but I don’t think it should come at the expense of Hughes or Joba as they are supposed to be the future. I hope that only one of Pettitte and Moose is back next year, and personally I’d prefer to see Moose. Mostly I just really don’t trust Andy, I’m not really sure why.

Sabathia 1/Joba 2/Wang 3/Moose or Hughes or Andy 4 or 5

Isn’t that your basic definition of a #3?

That’s probably the league average #3 starter, but you aren’t going to be a serious WS contender with that.  Not unless your one and two are a lot better and your four and five are almost as good.

That’s a pretty vision bebop. very pretty.

And I’m out. Off to a camping trip with my team.

have fun watching the Yankees get brutalized by Toronto as per usual.

That’s probably the league average #3 starter, but you aren’t going to be a serious WS contender with that.  Not unless your one and two are a lot better and your four and five are almost as good.

I wonder how many championship teams had significantly better than that as their #3?  That’s rhetorical, by the way.  Mainly I was responding to Pettitte being “done”(ish).  He’s not done, just not what he was.

But as to whether or not a pitcher like Pettitte would help the Yankees…well, CC and Wang as 1/2 would probably be better than most 1/2’s.  Moose probably better than most #3’s, and Pettitte better than most #4’s.  So, that would work.

I understand the need to a deep staff, but I don’t think it should come at the expense of Hughes or Joba as they are supposed to be the future.

I agree 100%...but if Hughes and Joba are each limited to 120 innings or so, they’re really only taking up one slot in the rotation; they could probably each get about 16 starts and some time in the bullpen.  I think expecting them to throw more innings than that would be bad.  Kennedy probably isn’t ready for 32-starts at six-per either.  Again, I’m not sure if having Pettitte and Moose in addition to a FA (CC) is the right solution.  But given the innings limits of the younger players, I can’t say it’s wrong, either.  Enjoy your vacation!

If Pettitte is willing to re-sign for substantially less than $16 million, by all means, bring him back.  Otherwise, no.  Let’s not forget that his last “masterful” start was against the Blue Jays and their lineup was full of AAA type-bats like Marco Scutaro, David Eckstein and John McDonald.

Yeah, I am off too, visiting a friend. Would be spared from watching the WOE coming up empty over and over again. Rodriguez (of either variety) is teh suck!!1!!!!1

Latroy Hawkins with Houston 9IP 15Ks 0 era go figure

I know Pettitte has looked like crap lately but his peripherals are still decent.  His FIP and xFIP are still sub-4.00.  I would actually be fine with the Yankees signing CC, Moose and Pettitte.  Those three plus Joba and Wang can be the rotation, with Hughes and Kennedy waiting for the inevitable injury/ineffectiveness.

I’m trying to decide if bunting in the top of the first inning is a show of arrogance that the Jays know 1 run will win this game or a sign of stupidity.

Can it be both?

- A. Rios lined out to deep left
- V. Wells lined out to deep right

Worrisome?/.

3 ip, 0 runs from Pavano. not worrisome yet.

Plus, although I know this means we’d lose, 3 runs from him in 5-6 innings would be fine.

Damon trying to single-handedly win this game.

- A. Lind flied out to deep left
- L. Overbay flied out to deep center
- R. Barajas flied out to deep left

It’s a haiku.

I was caught off guard to learn that it’s not a given that Pavano is done pitching for the Yankees in a month.  His contract includes a $13 million option for 2009 ($1.95 million buyout).  He probably won’t be worth $11.05 million, but that’s not clear cut if he is healthy.

Pavano out after 72 pitches?  I guess Cashman wants to trade this hot potato for a bag of balls while he still can.

One thing I don’t have an intuition for is how to convert innings to pitches.  The warmup pitches that get thrown each inning count to some degree, but 8 of them might be worth 5 “real” pitches or just 1 for all I know.  Does anyone have insight into that?

Carl Pavano, welcome to the **Wonderful World of WOE** — broadcast in living color!

Girardi into Mariano overload now.

Yeah seriously

There are things that you do because the team is no longer going to the postseason, but deciding to give Mo extra work because he won’t be needed in the postseason probably isn’t one of them.  The extra injury risk just isn’t worth it.

Girardi losing trust in just about everyone else in that bullpen.

Thanks Mo.

i like how we’re at the point of whining when we win. That’s how sad this season has become.

I must disagree with the MO overload. Lets not forget this is just game two of our soon to be, 17 game winning streak.
Mo will have plenty of days off while WOE destroys all pitchers.
SG is a friggin prophet. #36 sez what I thinx to an effin T.
I want Ollie Perez too.
If he can smack the Sawx,Rays, and Angels around for a few years I’ll grin and bear it when he gets hammered by Seattle and KC.
Screw the Boras baggage. I’m getting old. I’d like to win sometime before they start naming aircraft carriers after Cindy McCain or Michelle Obama.

Hey Brian. We gonna do a wee bit of Jet love here soon? You too George.

How cool is it that Pavano “KING OF ALL RIDUCULE” has two more wins than Phil and wee Ian?

Pavano out after 72 pitches?  I guess Cashman wants to trade this hot potato for a bag of balls while he still can.

Let me show you to your table, Mr. Abraham. We have your family size order of mozzarella sticks waiting, as per your request.

i like the fact that they won an OPENER to a series for the first time since April.

I would actually be fine with the Yankees signing CC, Moose and Pettitte.

If you said this blasphemy 3 weeks ago (like I did), you got browbeaten almost immediately. But it makes sense as things stand right now. Hughes and/or Kennedy come up and pitch 4-5 quality starts in September, and things may change. But as it stands, they’ll need all 3 of those guys.

Dear Cashman -

Please trade Pavano now, while you can get something, anything, for him.

Thanks

I think Mussina is going to want a two year deal.  I’m not big on signing guys that old, especially to more than one year, but he’s probably going to want to get to 300 and a two year deal gives him the cushion to do it and retire a Yankee.  Frankly, he’s earned it and unless the Yanks want to pay big money for Ben Sheets, they’ll need him.  As others pointed out, the kids have hit some bumps in their development and it would be nice to have Mussina behind Wang and probably (if Yanks get their way) CC.

Pavano is pretty much guaranteed to be undervalued on the market.  Sounds like an opportunity for the Yankees to get a bargain.

If I were Sabathia, i would stay in the NL.  Pitching against NL lineups is much easier and I would get to show off my hitting prowess, maybe pull a Babe Ruth.

Before you laugh, remember Sabathia actually “called” a HR during interleague play this year, and delivered.

Just sayin’ is all.

Sounds like an opportunity for the Yankees to get a bargain.

This would be a good idea if it wasn’t already crystal clear that Pavano did not enjoy his New York experience.  As it is, this is a dead issue.

Ozzie is crazy:

“I don’t like to see anybody get hurt, but thank you, Josh,” White Sox manager Ozzie Guillen said with a smile before the game. “To me, he’s one of the best pitchers, if he’s not the best pitcher, in the game. This guy is a big-time, big-game pitcher.

Beckett has pitched more than 200 innings twice in his career, and cleared the 200 IP mark by a combined 5.1 innings in those two seasons.  His three seasons in the AL have lead to ERA+‘s of 95, 145, and 104.  He has had two absolutely dominant post-season runs, but “best in the game”?  Really?

This would be a good idea if it wasn’t already crystal clear that Pavano did not enjoy his New York experience.  As it is, this is a dead issue.

Crystal clear? I don’t know how it’s crystal clear. He hasn’t enjoyed it because he’s been injured and people have given him shit for hit. If he wins 5 or 6 games down the stretch which coincides with the team going on a run, who knows. Not sure if anyone else has said it, but not picking up Pavano’s option is not a no brainer, IMO. $13M option with a $1.95M buyout. You could do worse for $11M/1 year.

Sure, but from everything I’ve heard he has a bad relationship with both Cashman and Mussina, who darn near everyone is advocating bringing back.  Since the GM, the player himself, and members of the team don’t want him back it just seems very unlikely.
I think its much more likely Pavano tells Cashman not to pick up his option, and considering the other four years why risk the non-performance?

I think the best thing would be if Pavano pitches well and the Yankees pick up the option and then trade him ala Sheffield.

All reports I hear/read suggest an excellent relationship between Pavano and Cash.

All reports I hear/read suggest an excellent relationship between Pavano and Cash.

Yeah, I hear Pavano does love all the cash he’s made as a pitcher. Not sure if the bills love him back though.

Sure, but from everything I’ve heard he has a bad relationship with both Cashman and Mussina

Micheal Kay won’t shut up about how Pavaon credits Cashman with sticking with him through all the injuries. He said this at least 3 agonizing times last night.

Can Darrell Rasner induce the offense to score?

If you said this blasphemy 3 weeks ago (like I did), you got browbeaten almost immediately.

I don’t know if I “browbeated” you, but at the time I thought it was the wrong idea.  However, I also didn’t expect Chamberlain to miss a month or Hughes to take as long to get back.  Now, however, it is unlikely the team will be able to adequately fill two spots (at least for the full season) with Hughes, Kennedy, and Chamberlain due to innings-limits.  I supposed I’d rather have Pettitte back on a one-year deal, than take a chance on Sheets staying healthy (for 5/60 or more), or Burnette pitching as good as everyone thinks he is.  Actually, I know I’d rather have Pettitte.

with burnett, cc, and sheets on the market this year the offseason is going to be pretty rich pitching wise.

I’m with Mike K. on this team needing to be overly cautious about pitching depth next season, and on preferring smart short-term deals for Pettitte (and Moose) over long term deals for anyone except CC. 

It’s amazing that the 2009 Yankees will have to proceed with Joba, Hughes and Kennedy more or less the same way they did this year.

Well crap.  Is there any more offense in this team?

Sweet.  I was just thinking how awesome a Cano homer would be.

Wow!

I did not see the Pudge homer coming though.

Pudge’s first useful moment?

Alex…..

In Godzilla I trust.

Rasner’s been pounding the strike zone at an incredible rate but I don’t think he’s pitching as well as the indicators are showing this game