I agree with this sentiment 100%. I don’t just want the Yankees to win, I want them to win my our guys. Guys who we drafted and who I’ve been anticipating; guys who have a chance to be Yankees for their whole careers.

Is a rotation of Joba, Phil, Betances, Brackman, and IPK every actually going to happen? No, of course not. Not all of them will be good and healthy, etc, etc, etc. But I still like to dream about it, to follow the ups and downs, and to root for my guys to make it.

Trading for Santana *might* be the best baseball move, but it won’t be the move that makes me like baseball the most, and that’s all I really care about.

I’ve been trying to figure out how to describe how I’ve been feeling, and I think it’s like wanting to go ask a girl to the dance.  She’s really hot, and you thought you had a great chance of going with her, but now you’ve heard through several sources that she will say no to you.  You still have a chance, but at this point it’s slim (The chance that Hughes both stays and is lights out).  Did that make sense?  No?  Okay.

Agreed on the point about “we don’t want the Sox to get him” logic.  That seems like it’s playing into the Twins’ hand.

“I completely understand why the Yankees made this move.”

You might want to edit this sentence before you stop someone else’s heart, SG.  As it is, the EMS workers made a mess of my apartment.

Rowand, whom many of us as cited as Melky’s replacement, is apparently seeking 5 years.  Blechh.

DaPuj, it made total sense.

I 1/2 agree with your setiment but 1/2 of me remembers deals like Roberto Kelly (who I loved) for Paul O’Neil.  Or, a better example, Jose Rijo and a bunch of guys who never turned into anything for Rickey Henderson.  Yeah, Jose Rijo turned out great but it took 3 seasons and in those 3 seasons you got greatness from Rickey Henderson.  This trade is a risk, but with a young, class guy like Johan this MAY be a risk worth taking.  I tend to lean against making the deal if Hughes is included but, PERHAPS, The Yankees front office views Kennedy as an equal or better prospect right now. I know Hughes was coming off an injury but I was disappointed in his lack of velocity last year…although his playoff performance was great.  Bottom line: I’m torn but won’t be devastated if Johan is starting opening day and game 1 of the ALDS next year.  I also will be looking forward to watching Joba, Kennedy, Wang, Cano, Jeter, Rivera, and hopefully Pettitte, Melky, Duncan, Edwar Ramirez, Ohlendorf, and maybe Horne, Action Jackson, Sanchez, and Tabata in the next season or two.

It’s like breaking up with a grilfriend who you like alot but aren’t sure you love- it tears you up and you’re not always sure you made the right decision but then a new girl comes along and you completely forget about the last one…unless of course she turns into Cindy Crawford or something and starts dating celebrities.

a few things..

while i also want to see “our” guys come up and come up big, this isnt the reality of baseball anymore. How many players are staying with the team they got drafted by?

I will be sad to see hughes go but maybe sadder for melky to go….if we go into next season with damons noodle arm in center then we have the worst outfield defense in baseball

i hope this is posturing…i dont want to see santana go anywhere(santana beckett 1,2 is almost unbeatable).....

but if that venezuelan??? southpaw comes to new york…im cool with riding him to october

For the record, I didn’t like the A-Rod/Soriano trade for the same reason, but I got over that and now I love A-Rod. It’s not that I won’t love Johan if we get him. Yeah, it would look great to see his name in the boxscore 34+ times a year. It’s just not how I’d like to see it done.

I don’t know if giving up Hughes is smart or not but what really upsets me was a sentence in the Times intimating that now that the Yankees are willing to give up Hughes the Twins may ask for IPK TOO on the theory that “are you really going to let IPK stand in the way of getting Santana?  #### em.  You can’t negotiate with people who are trying to shake you down because if you do no one will ever do a equitable trade with you.  My counter offer if Hughes no Melky, Tabata, Jackson or Horne also and definitely no more then one of them.  I’m sick and tired of so many teams (and Boras) trying to rip us off.

I can only hope that this leak concerning Hughes is just Cashman testing the water - seeing if Boston ups their ante or Twins get too greedy (and ask for IPK on top of Hughes).  I can only hope Cashman and Hank backtrack and say no, knowing that Boston was just in it to hurt the Yanks.  As bebop says, you can’t deal with those trying to shake you down.  Yanks should walk away.

Let Minnesota try to trade Santana.  Let the Yanks sit back and grab Johan when he becomes a free agent.  Then, Santana can slot in ahead of Hughes and the other pitchers.  Let’s face it, Johan is going to sign with the Yanks, whether Cash and Hank trade for him or not.

Minnesota is not holding the cards.  The Yankees are.

I hope Hank and Cashman realize that.

Cash won’t get ripped off. I think he knows that, if Pettitte comes back, they are as good as any team in baseball without making this deal.  If they make a different deal they can maybe get even better.  As I said before, why not leave the young arms in the rotation along with Pettitte and Wang and trade for a big 1Bman.  Basically, go for 1-9 lineup taht can seriously bludgeon other teams to death (even more than the current lineup).  If these arms develop like we hope to go along with that offense the team is scary. If not, a deal can be made at the deadline or a free agent arm will be brought on board in 2009.  I don’t think the Yanks have the same win-now pressure from teh fans they did a few years ago when we were on top of the mountain fighting people off.  The pressure has waned and many people are happy to see them build from within…at least for now they are.

Yatt, if Johan is so set on being a Yankee that he’ll definitely sign with them next year, why did he sign his current extension at all? 

He could have been a FA, and known the Yanks would have been interested, 2 years ago.

Perfectly stated.  Wanting to win is part of being a sports fan but watching your own players develop and win trumps all (and I’m sure is what people much older than myself are referring to when lamenting free agency).  Part of what made the late 90s, early 00s dynasty fun was watching Jeter/Williams/Posada/Rivera/Pettitte all coming up and develop into stars.  If this trade is the difference between winning and losing, you bite the bullet, but I just don’t see it that way.  There are too many other options that involve either keeping Hughes and bringing in another SP or even keeping Hughes and picking up Santana (albeit one year down the road).

“Desperation is a stinky cologne.”
  -  Chief Grady

repetitive point since we switched threads: maybe teams like the Sox and Yanks view prospects as key bargaining chips to get them the major league talent they need without having to give up major league talent in return. We like to think of the kids as future Yanks/Sox, but I’m not sure that’s what their owners are actually breeding them to be. Do the Yanks think they need major league talent? In other words, is their goal to win in 2008 (as opposed to chance to win for a block of years)? Then you make the deal. The Sox’ philosophy is a little more toward building for a chunk of years, so they balance major league talent with cost-controlled young players. Maybe the Yanks are in the same place, in which case it’s tricky. But there’s definitely a school of thought which says if you’re a rich team, the kids need never be more than trade bait.

Here’s what bugs me beyond losing Hughes.  If they throw in Melky, now you’ve got Damon in center again and Matsui in left (until his knee explodes), or you have to go out and overpay for one of the overrated center field options out there.  So you’re going to end up with two big deals when this is all said and done.  I know people aren’t sold on Melky, but the cost to replace him is going to be high.

If Melky is dealt, Brett Gardner can step in and play even better defense (i.e. superior range but a lesser arm) and may even produce offensively in a similar manner.  Melky certainly has more potential than Gardner in terms of power, but Garner, if he gets on base around 33% of the time or better, would be an absolute terror on the basepaths.  He can play 80-100 games in CF and fill in late when the Yanks are ahead, pushing Damon to LF.

excellent point, pagrags, about Oneill.  He was 30 when the yankees traded for him.

Tino, O’Neill, Girardi, Sierra (the first time), Raines, Fielder, Hayes, Knoblauch, Justice, etc etc were all hitters (too lazy to look up pitchers right now) that were trade for and who had an impact despite generally being “passed their prime”. 

and is this connection to Hughes actual, or just theoretical?  Sure, i’ve been reading about him for years, but it’s not like I get a chance to watch minor league games.  We’ve only seen him in pintripes for a couple of months.  I think part of me has grown attached to the “idea” of hughes, but not the actual player. 

That could all be erased after watching Johan tear through the league in 2008.  When you look back at Tino and O’Neill, don’t you see “true yankees” (whatever that means).

and in terms of Johan coming to NY only b/c he wants money….uh, why do you think Hughes has been working so hard his entire career?  He was basically FORCED to come to NY when he was drafted….why is that so noble?  There’s no indication that Hughes cares any more or less about money than Johan.

I’m kind of afraid that Hank is going to repeat all the mistakes his father made before Stick bailed him out and Cash is going to be relegated to a figurehead.  If we must include Hughes lets get awfully stingy in who else we include.  They will be getting the best pitching pitching prospect in baseball last year.  Above all do not negotiate with extortionists.

Olney: Yanks’ plan is to switch Damon back to CF. That may or may not be true but it sounds good to my ears. Doesn’t mean this Gardner kid can’t play his way into CF, or Damon play his way out of it again.

Twinkies are also scheduled to talk to the Sox again today, presumably to see if they’ll up the ante. Damn I hope not.

this also means that giambi’s bat gets in the lineup every day…..which is a good thing.

bebop, you are forgetting that Stick is in favor of trading Hughes.

I have been looking forward to watching Hughes develop. I do not look forward to seing the Red Sox with Santana, Becket, and Matsuzaka in their rotation. It seems likely that Pettitte might retire.

I think a lot of us were surprised by how aggressively the Sox went after Dice K, and don’t want to see that happen again with Santana. The Red Sox have done a great job of building up their farm and have more major league ready players they can afford to give up. The Yankees are really in a no-win situation, it’s going to hurt one way or the other.

this also means that giambi’s bat gets in the lineup every day…..which is a good thing.

how many games do you think giambi will actually be able to play?  and it gets matsui’s defense in left field every day…..which is a bad thing. and it gets damon’s arm in center field every day…..which is a bad thing.

I don’t know about you guys, but one reason I’m not excited about Santana is that he’s a pitcher.  Javier Vazquez, Carl Pavano, Randy Johnson, Jaret Wright, and Kevin Brown were pitchers.  Remember when Randy Johnson was supposed to be our “ace”?  On one level it’s silly to compare Santana and Pavano, but the fact is nearly every non-homegrown pitcher the Yankees have acquired in recent years has pretty much been a huge bust.

Yatt, if Johan is so set on being a Yankee that he’ll definitely sign with them next year, why did he sign his current extension at all? 

He could have been a FA, and known the Yanks would have been interested, 2 years ago.

It’s my understanding Santana is not pleased with the Twins’ rebuilding efforts.  He wanted to stay, but after the front office made it clear that they weren’t going to spend more money, Santana decided to leave.

Tino, O’Neill, Girardi, Sierra (the first time), Raines, Fielder, Hayes, Knoblauch, Justice, etc etc were all hitters (too lazy to look up pitchers right now) that were trade for and who had an impact despite generally being “passed their prime”.

Those guys had an impact, but remember they were supplementing the young, homegrown core of the team: Bernie, Jeter, Posada, etc.  Also, time and WS rings heals all wounds.  Lots of people were bitching about Knoblauch when he got the yips and couldn’t throw to 2nd.  He didn’t look like a good pickup when that happened.

Today’s core of young Yankees contains Cano and Cabrera.  And it looks like one of those guys is out the door.  That means you have one good young positional player.  All the rest are out of their prime or just starting to leave their prime.  Throwing another player entering his 30s doesn’t help matters.  That player being a pitcher makes matters worse.

I’m agnostic about trading Hughes.  Rationally its probably a good idea, emotionally it saddens me some.  Bit I do not want to include Melky and Tabatha or Jackson.  Preferrably I would include B prospect if Hughes whereas the old George if his back was to the wall might have included IPK and another top prospect.

Nate, I don’t know whether you consider 1996-2003 to be “recent years” but if you do, they included many pitchers who were not home grown that helped the Yanks immensely - including David Cone, El Duque, David Wells, Jimmy Key, Roger Clemens and Mike Mussina.  The ONLY homegrown pitcher of any worth the Yanks had during those years was Andy Pettitte.

Randy Johnson was well into his 30’s. The other guys, pffft. They were either old or never Johan Santana. This is a pitcher just in his prime years.

Now I hope the Yankees don’t go crazy here and trade Hughes and Austin Jackson, but I have no doubt that the Twins would prefer Jackson to Melky. But I’m not against trading Hughes for Santana, but any other top tier prospect is too much.

That and I really don’t want to see Damon in CF, or pay too much for Rowand. So what the Yankees strategy is, who knows. But we have seen that the new boss is the same as the old boss, what with the A-Freud money bonanza and the fourth year to Posada.

I’m wondering if Rowand might be a good investment. Depends a lot on who the throw in would be. In one year Abreu is gone-unless resigned. Matsui has one more as well, I believe. Rowand would give good cf defense and is a good right hand bat to balance the lineup. Wouldn’t he be a good left fielder after Matsui leaves assuming A. Jackson is still in the mix and pushes him out of center? Aside from Tabata and Jackson, neither of whom are even at AA as yet, it might not be bad to get this guy. My only concern is the No. of years and how good or bad his throwing is. (If he has a Damon arm, forget it) If average or above average, I’d offer no more than four years and let him decide the merits of joining a great team with a great chance at the postseason (or more!)

Rowand would cost the Yanks their first round pick in June.  Moreover, his career OPS+ is a mere 106, not exactly corner OF material.  I’d much rather see Gardner and Damon share CF next year and Austin Jackson in 2009 than five years of overpaid, under-performing Rowand - who will also cost the Yanks a potential top prospect in the draft.

Gardner sucks. He can’t hit.

“Gardner sucks. He can’t hit.”

That should make him attractive to the Twins.  Can we build a deal around him?

Can Melky hit?  How much worse would Gardner’s line in 2008 be than Melky’s for 2006-2007? 

Also, if we are going to sign a FA outfielder and money is no object, then why not just go after Andruw Jones?  He’s far better than Rowand and as a type B free agent, won’t cost the team a pick.

Rowand would cost the Yanks their first round pick in June.  Moreover, his career OPS+ is a mere 106, not exactly corner OF material.

Rowand would be an offensive upgrade over Melky, that part of the trade makes complete sense. It’s they way the Red Sox cornered the Yanks into giving up Hughes that stinks.

The Yankees aren’t cornered, Hughes may always have been available. It isn’t as if the farm system isn’t loaded with RHP, just counting the healthy ones is quite a few. Just that more than one top tier prospcet and messing up the OF isn’t worth it.

Can Melky hit?  How much worse would Gardner’s line in 2008 be than Melky’s for 2006-2007?

Brett Gardner just posted a .674 OPS in AAA while striking out in nearly a quarter of his ABs and he’s also a year OLDER than Melky. If EVERYTHING goes right for Gardner he might one day be able to be counted on for .285/.340/.360 or thereabouts.

CT Yankee, what’s Rowand’s offense going to be like in the 5th year of the 5-year deal he’s asking teams for?  Or the third year, for that matter?

Don - farm might be loaded with RHP prospects, but they aren’t all ready to contribute and many will wash out.  Hughes is ready to contribute now.  But yes, the kicker will be handing over Melky and another prospect or two just for the honor of Santana for one year.

If any team can handle a Gardner and his lack of offense it is the Yankees. I don’t want Rowand for what he’ll be asking, but if they do sign Rowand, it means goodbye Austin Jackson. Now that scares me.

Yatt, Hughes also can wash out. But right now, ML ready, there’s Joba and Kennedy.

Horne is not far behind, he has tremendous stuff.

the kicker will be handing over Melky and another prospect or two just for the honor of Santana for one year.

That’s just wrong.  I know you’re dead set against long-term contracts, but the reality here is that while the Twins only own Santana for one year, they are trading that year PLUS a period of exclusive negotiating rights.  you and I may not place much value on such exclusive rights, but last year’s postings of Japanese pitchers shows us that MLB teams value them pretty damned highly.  So one might think of the rumored trade as Hughes for one year of Santana and Melky + for the rights to negotiate a long-term deal before he can hit the open market.  Is Melky + worth $51.1M?

the Red Sox cornered the Yanks into giving up Hughes

Also wrong.  SSF has it right:

Twinkies are also scheduled to talk to the Sox again today, presumably to see if they’ll up the ante.

If there are rumors late tonight or early tomorrow that the Red Sox have agreed to substitute Elsbury for Crisp or Buchholz for Lester, are we going to start bragging about Cashman playing Theo like a fiddle?  It’ll be BS if we do.  The truth is that the Twins are the only ones playing anybody, and this is exactly what they should be doing.  Any analysis that says the Twins lack leverage is completely off-base.  That might be true if the Yankees were the only ones interested in Santana.  Once there’s a bidding war, they have all the leverage in the world.

It is possible that the Yankees are using the Twins in an attempt at a Sabathia or a Bedard deal. There is so much smoke & mirrors here, who knows what is really going on.

Perhaps a deal for Santana has been reached in principle and the Yankees are negotiating a new contract. Who really knows until all the smoke clears. Until then, we speculate, but it is hot stove league time. 

If there are rumors late tonight or early tomorrow that the Red Sox have agreed to substitute Elsbury for Crisp or Buchholz for Lester, are we going to start bragging about Cashman playing Theo like a fiddle?  It’ll be BS if we do.  The truth is that the Twins are the only ones playing anybody, and this is exactly what they should be doing.

This is an excellent point.  While the Twins don’t have complete leverage, they do have enough.  While it doesn’t seem likely right now, it’s not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Boston decides to include Bucholz or Ellsbury.  Like Don said, no one really knows right now.  It’s just fun to guess and talk about it.

Being able to follow this stuff only haphazardly at the moment, I have one question: how is it that every offer and counter-offer amongst three teams is being leaked?

Separately, I don’t want to see Hughes go, and while I know that Santana has been upper-echelon quality, I am haunted by Doug Drabek being traded for Rick Rhoden after the 1986 season. Santana > Rhoden, yes, probably by quite a bit…..but that’s my version of SG’s Leiter/Barfield haunting.

(my four-day old daughter doesn’t want Hughes to be traded either, as she so articulately communicated to me this morning)

MLBTR (I know, I know) has quoted a source saying the Yanks have offered Hughes, Melky and IPK.  If true, that would mean the team is very high on Alan Horne, because giving up two major league pitchers would mean the Yanks would have an open spot at no. 5.  On the other hand, it would mean the team is keeping both Tabata and Jackson - which is rather shrewd in my opinion.

MLBTR (I know, I know) has quoted a source saying the Yanks have offered Hughes, Melky and IPK.  If true, that would mean the team is very high on Alan Horne, because giving up two major league pitchers would mean the Yanks would have an open spot at no. 5.  On the other hand, it would mean the team is keeping both Tabata and Jackson - which is rather shrewd in my opinion.

I read this as well.  The article is in the Star Tribune.  It also has this added:

[2:55 UPDATE: Someone following the Yankees situation just told me that New York prefers to hold on to Hughes or Kennedy, so we’ll see how this plays out).

And from
Heyman:

The third prospect will not be pitchers Ian Kennedy or Alan Horne or outfielder Jose Tabada.

“you never know how it affects whatever” is part of a Hank Steinbrenner quote in a Jon Heyman article just up. I hope he can come up with a few more of these between puffs.

It seems like most of the Yankees lack of leverage is coming from the fact that they don’t know if Pettite will be back, and without him, they definitely need, if not an ace, then a front of the rotation starter with actual MLB credentials.  I wonder if they could get him to just say he’s coming back while he debates, just so they can deal from a somewhat stronger position.

One would think a professional like Heyman would know how to spell the names of Yankee players/prospects, i.e. Tabata not Tabada.  In any event, as I mentioned earlier, if Melky and Hughes go, the third prospect ought to be a throw in like Karstens.

I’ve got Gardner projected at .256/.333/.338 which would be 19 runs worse than an average CF over 650 plate appearances, and 2 runs worse than a replacement level CF.  His 80% projection(optimistic) is that he could hit .286/.383/.407 but I think that’s a problem with my projections, I see no way he could even approach that.

He could be good enough defensively to take a chunk of of that, but looking at my historic zone rating database, here are the # of CF defensive seasons where a player saved more than 20 runs.

1989 Devon White
1996 Steve Finley

Gardner might be Jason Tyner with a batter glove. 

I think the points about getting Santana worsening the Yankee defense are important.  Melky’s projected to be about a +4 defender in CF, Damon around a -2.  Add maybe 5 runs on top of that for the difference in their arms which may be conservative.  That’s an 11 run downgrade.  Now add Matsui in LF and his projected -10, compared to Damon projected at being around average.  That’s another win less.

But the Yankees aren’t getting Santana for the regular season.  They’re getting him for the postseason. If we assume that Santana is a true talent 3.00 ERA pitcher and Hughes is a true talent 4.00 ERA pitcher and the Yankees are something like a 5.00 R/G team in the postseason, then the Yankees are 12% more likely to win a single Santana start than they are to win a single Hughes start.

At some point the Yankees do have to start trading some of their RHP pitching some aren’t going to be making it and even if they did you can’t have a 10 man rotation, but I really hate the rumor that they’re offering Hughes and IPK.

I’m trying to deal with this potential trade as much as I can but it’s really ruining my f’ing Saturday.

Of course, the Yanks could just sign Andruw Jones to play CF (or, as Ken Rosenthal suggests, ink Mike Cameron to a short-term deal), which would give the team a fine defensive CF along with a power hitting right-handed bat.  Moreover, it would let the Yanks go slow with Austin Jackson if need be.  If he’s ready in 2010, Jones’ bat would still play well in a corner unlike that of Aaron Rowand.  After all, it’s only money, right?

If EVERYTHING goes right for Gardner he might one day be able to be counted on for .285/.340/.360 or thereabouts.

Isn’t Gardner an on-base machine?  Seems to me he takes a lot of walks.  If he is going to hit 285 in the bigs, I feel his OBP would be more like 385.  I see his upside being more of a Chuck Knoblach…And Fabian, I KNOW you are better than looking at a half-season of AAA ball to evaluate a player.  Like a number of Yankees in the minors (Gonzalez, E. Duncan, Sardinha, others), this will be a big year for him to prove what he can do.

This trade sucks.

Isn’t Gardner an on-base machine?  Seems to me he takes a lot of walks.  If he is going to hit 285 in the bigs, I feel his OBP would be more like 385.  I see his upside being more of a Chuck Knoblach…And Fabian, I KNOW you are better than looking at a half-season of AAA ball to evaluate a player.  Like a number of Yankees in the minors (Gonzalez, E. Duncan, Sardinha, others), this will be a big year for him to prove what he can do.

Guys with no power (re: Gardner) have huge declines in walk rates upon reaching the majors because ML pitchers will just knock the bat out of their hands. There is no chance whatsoever that Brett Gardner’s upside is Chuck Knoblauch.

I like the idea of Andruw Jones if the Yanks deal Melky, because Jones does have the bat to move across the outfield.

Hughes and IPK - no way the Yankees do that (then again, I didn’t think they’d trade Hughes, either - but I at least knew it was a POSSIBILITY).

I was reading somewhere that Andruw Jones’ season last year was SO bad, that it was even below a 10% confidence interval of his projected performance, which could mean it wasn’t just a bad year, but that something was fundementally wrong.  I guess I like the idea of Jones, as long as 2007 was a bad year, and not a portend year.

They have to draw the line at one of Hughes and IPK.  They can’t trade both, they just can’t.  Right?

This trade sucks.

The process of the trade? Yeah, totally agree, I’ve switched from the beer to the Islay. I hate this process.

IE, I’d bet the third prospect would be someone like Dan McCutchen, Dave Robertson or Alberto Gonzalez. As much as I want them to take a Jeff Karstens, I don’t think the Twins take our spare parts.

Brett Gardner is a good OBP guy, though .385 may be a bit much to hope for. He managed .343 in his first 181 ABs in Scranton. He also strikes out a fair amount. His slugging pct? Who cares, with his speed a single or a BB might as well be a double. I think he needs more time in AAA, but he definitely had some good numbers in the AFL.

Aren’t McCutchen and Alberto Gonzalez spare parts as well?  McCutchen is 25 years old already - right now and he’s never pitched at AAA.  Karstens, who is the same age, dominated AAA last season.  Robertson could be a useful reliever but I don’t know whether to believe he throws 88-90 as some say or 92-94 as others insist.  That’s quite a difference.  Perhaps Fabian can shed some light on the issue.

McCutchen is a low 90s guy and the fact that he isn’t in AAA shouldn’t be held against him since this was his first professional season. He and Gonzalez both have a better shot at being useful than Karstens I would think.

If they give up Hughes and Melky they MUST NOT include IPK, Horne, Tabathia or Jackson or we will be in deep doo doo and very team will try to shake us down for the forseeable future.  And I with everyone who says giving up Melky will leave us with a lot of unattractive options for CF next year.

Ken Rosenthal says the Twinkies are asking for the AG or Horne as the 3rd player.  I can live with relinquishing the AG but not Horne.

Who is Tabathia?  Perhaps I should ask, what is Tabathia or where?  It sounds like the name of a small dukedom in the Pyranees.

As for Horne vs. the AG, that’s like the difference between Salma Hayek and Rosie O’Donnell.  Do the Yanks even need to consider that one?  After all, Betemit can play 15-20 games at SS to spell Jeter and our fantasies of moving DJ to the outfield and replacing him with a slick fielder who will vacuum all of Wang’s grounders is just that, anyway.

By the way, Fabian, I’d be curious to know what you think of Marquez.

Ken Rosenthal says the Twinkies are asking for the AG or Horne as the 3rd player.

this doesn’t make sense. is AG even a prospect?

Tabithia is either the spawn of Darren and Samantha or an 18 year old who had success at each of his 3 lels so far while playing against much older playes.

It’s like holding up a bank and asking for $10, but the Twins do love slick fielding guys who can’t hit but who can steal a base and whatnot.  That’s why they jettisoned David Ortiz.  The fat slob couldn’t field and couldn’t run.  What good is a player like that?

This whole process reminds me of that feeling you get when you realize you have food poisoning but aren’t quite ready to throw up yet.  Inevitability sucks.

IE, I like Jeff Marquez an unreasonable amount. Witness my ranking of him last offseason. I’m also certain I will rank him higher than anyone else does this offseason.

Aren’t a lot of pundits high on Melancon?

They are indeed.  Supposedly, his makeup and work ethic are very impressive.  However, he is coming off TJ surgery and probably won’t be able to help the Yanks until late in 2008 or 2009 - especially as he hasn’t pitched above short season A ball.

My wife won a $2,000 poetry prize. We talked about paying off some debt or maybe upgrading to a new laptop but today she came home with an $1700 chloe paddington handbag.

And now this Hughes shit? what a day…

I have never understood how some people can pay so much for a sack with a strap.  That’s all it is.  How do you tell a good bag from a bad one?  Is it just the pricetag and the name?

I have never understood how some people can pay so much for a sack with a strap.  That’s all it is.  How do you tell a good bag from a bad one?  Is it just the pricetag and the name?

god only knows.

ESPN:

With the Yankees’ offer now upgraded to include top young pitcher Phil Hughes, the Twins spoke again with the Red Sox late Saturday afternoon, sources say, and Boston generated a few new ideas for its proposed offer.

My guess would be Boston is trying to offer a better all-around package (four quality players) to compete with the Yankees making the best player available.  Now it’s up to Minnesota to decide which one they want.

Twins do love slick fielding guys who can’t hit but who can steal a base and whatnot.  That’s why they jettisoned David Ortiz.  The fat slob couldn’t field and couldn’t run.  What good is a player like that?

This is pretty wildly inaccurate.  They jettisoned Ortiz because he was about to get fairly expensive, was barely league average at getting on base, had hit about .210 vs LHP the previous two years, and had no defensive value.  28 other teams thought he wasn’t worth the million and a quarter that Boston threw at him for the hell of it.  Obviously a great move for the Red Sox in hindsight, but I don’t think you could have found a single high-ranking MLB front office person in the winter of 2002/2003 who’d have predicted that David Ortiz would ever slug .600, and that includes Theo Epstein.

What’s sad is that the MSM doesn’t seem to think there’s any difference between Horne and Gonzalez, and/or can’t be bothered to find out if there is a difference.

It’s like holding up a bank and asking for $10, but the Twins do love slick fielding guys who can’t hit but who can steal a base and whatnot.  That’s why they jettisoned David Ortiz.  The fat slob couldn’t field and couldn’t run.  What good is a player like that?

I know, you’re kidding. Frankly, one of my favorite parts of watching the Sox is seeing Papi score from 1st. He gets up a head of steam, but he runs in little half-steps so his bulk doesn’t carry him into the 3rd base dugout.

“The Twins know they would get Hughes and center fielder Melky Cabrera for Santana, and the Yankees believe that is enough of a concession to acquire a pitcher who will also demand a contract exceeding $100 million. They have told the Twins that at least five other prospects are untouchable — Dellin Betances, Alan Horne, Austin Jackson, Ian Kennedy and José Tabata.

According to two major league officials who have dealt with the Twins in recent days, the main issue holding up the deal is the third player the Yankees would give. The Yankees want the player to be a midlevel prospect, and the Twins are shooting higher.

The Yankees would like an answer from the Twins today or tomorrow, when the winter meetings begin in Nashville. If they do not get Santana, the Yankees would probably turn their attention to the Oakland right-hander Dan Haren.”

NYTimes.com

Jon Heyman

Along the same lines as the previous post. 

Minnesota has requested the Yankees surrender either pitcher Alan Horne or outfielder Austin Jackson as the third player, but the Yankees have thus far refused to include either in the deal for the two-time Cy Young winner. Most baseball insiders still see the Yankees as the favorite to land Santana with their inclusion of Hughes, but if the sides can’t agree on the third prospect, the Yankees may consider setting a deadline for Minnesota to accept their proposal.

Do you guys think that the emergence of Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy and the depth of quality arms in the farm system made Phil Hughes more expendable?  If they can get Johan Santana without giving up another top-level pitching prospect, is the deal really that bad, aside from the emotional attachment that some may have to Hughes?

I still don’t like giving up Hughes because, though I think Joba has the higher upside, I think Hughes is the surer bet in 2007 as a starter.

We’ll see, I suppose…

Minneapolis Star Tribune

The Twins are doing some posturing of there own.

According to a person close to the Twins’ negotiations, the club will take a hard line in trade talks involving Santana during this week’s winter meetings in Nashville. And that means—no matter how certain it has seemed that Santana will be traded—that the club would be comfortable entering the 2008 season with their two-time Cy Young Award winner in the rotation if no offer is good enough.

The source said the Twins have made their demands clear to the Red Sox, Yankees and other clubs interested in Santana and they will not compromise. They are willing to risk trying to deal Santana in July, when the return could be less, or even risk watching him walk away as a free agent after the season, with only draft picks as compensation.

The poker game continues.  Both sides have good reasons to complete a deal or walk away if the deal isn’t good enough.  It’ll be interesting to see how this plays out.

The best possible scenario would probably be for the Yanks to acquire Santana at the deadline for less than what’s being asked now.  They should be okay playing half a season without him (especially if Pettite comes back), but could really use him in the post-season.  Hopefully the Twins should will have fallen out of contention by that point, and their leverage is gone.

My wife won a $2,000 poetry prize. We talked about paying off some debt or maybe upgrading to a new laptop but today she came home with an $1700 chloe paddington handbag.

This is further proof to be a decent creative writer one must also be mildly insane.

At least thats what I’m banking my future writing career on.

The source said the Twins have made their demands clear to the Red Sox, Yankees and other clubs interested in Santana and they will not compromise. They are willing to risk trying to deal Santana in July, when the return could be less, or even risk watching him walk away as a free agent after the season, with only draft picks as compensation.

Fine. Let him start the season with the Twins, wondering if they want him, and where he’s going, and, if he has another mediocre (for him) season, his value will drop day-by-day, and the Twins will have to worry about the potential of his arm breaking down on any given day, dropping his trade value to nil.

I’d be willing to trade Hughes, Melky and a Grade B- 3rd prospect, but I’m sorry, the Twins have to accept some risk on their side as well. I would not will to give up a 3rd top flight player/prospect for Santana at this point. Part of playing poker is knowing when to fold this hand and try another hand, say Bedard or Haren. If the Twins get caught bluffing, they don’t get 3 or 4 good young players/prospects; they get 2 draft picks that MIGHT turn into viable players.

There are risks/opportunities on all sides in the current scenario. The Twins, as is their right, are trying to eliminate as much risk as possible. The Yanks, and all other suitors for Santana, don’t have to let them.

IE.. I once dated a half Basque half Tabathian waitress I met at a tapas place near Yale.  She had a flawless complexion and gymnastic fantastic ass.
Things cooled when she insisted I attend a Ethel Merman film fest with her during the 95 playoffs. I watched the game. She moved on.

With Phil Franchise’s elimination looming SG lets it all hang out, Fabian finally admits his “unreasonable” love for Jeff Marquez, Weekly Journalist’s marriage faces the ultimate crisis, Seattle Sox Fan perfects his triple no backsies no tag-backs opposite day jinx, and Thurm & Wildthrill have an ALL OUT BRAWL. Tune into the next thread of My Big Fat Amazing Replacement Level Island Race: Chris Britton’s Left Ass Cheek.

I’m loving the hard line stances.

The more hard line stances are taken up, the better the odds that the deal doesn’t get done.

That said, I, too, would probably be fine (or as fine as I’ll ever be) with Hughes/Melky/someone like Marquez. So if the deal ends up that, I’ll be pissed, but I’ve already half-convinced myself that Hughes for Santana is a good deal, so whatever.

Do you guys think that the emergence of Joba Chamberlain and Ian Kennedy and the depth of quality arms in the farm system made Phil Hughes more expendable?

yeah, I don’t think there’s any question about this. That said, I think even if this was 2002 and there was absolutely no depth in the farm system, the Yankees would have dealt Hughes for an ace of Santana’s quality.

I’ve been hoping the Twins would overplay their hand, and it’s possible that’s what they’re doing now. And if the Yanks do inquire seriously about Haren, it becomes apparent to me that there’s a faction within the organization not content going into 2008 with the three kids making up 60% of the rotation. And I bet it’s not the baseball people.

Sorry Weekly J, that’s a kick in the mummies. $1700 bucks on a handbag is the female equivalent of blowing the money on strippers and booze. She’d kill you if you did that.

If the Twins won’t accept a B prospect as the 3rd component to hell with them as if the prospect of the Twins hanging on to Santana scares anyone.  The best result for us might be Santana stays with the Twinkies or goes to the NL(and why are next to no NL teams ever involved in vying for beig free agents or trades?)

WJ you should have gone to Canal street and bought an indistinguishable knockoff, we’re not talking about Rolexes here.

My wife won a $2,000 poetry prize. We talked about paying off some debt or maybe upgrading to a new laptop but today she came home with an $1700 chloe paddington handbag.

awesome

i guess you have to look at it from Minnesota’s perspective.

Melky is a nice player.  but he’s not a star.  and many people don’t really think he WILL be a star.  he’s nice to have because he is cheap.  he’s good, not great.  if i were a Twins fan i would not consider him adequate return for Santana.

Hughes is a great prospect.  but we all know the deal, TINSTAAPP. 

you are a Twins fan.  you are now getting back a very good prospect and an OK CFer for probably the most popular pitcher in Twins’ history.  how would that sit with you?

you’d want more.  and if the yankees are refusing to make that 3rd player anything good, maybe you just fold up your tent, take Johan and Liriano and Young into 2008 and try to make some noise in the Central.

at the same time, the yankees know they have to give Johan an insane contract on top of the players, so they don’t want to give up any more than they have offered.

i see both sides of it. 

i am hoping he doesn’t get traded at all.

Nice one, eelz.  Perhaps there is a poetry prize in your future too.

“TINSTAAPP”

Well, maybe, but I think even the B-Pro guys have kind of backed away from this as it’s kind of dogmatic at the expense of realistic.

Seattle Sox Fan perfects his triple no backsies no tag-backs opposite day jinx,

Ah, the internets… where people assume you’re as smart and devious as you wished. Really, I don’t want Santana. I hate him. He sucks.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3138088

The sox are now saying that they will include ellsbury, but will not include both ellsbury and lester.

Blech.

I wouldn’t be surprized if this is all a bunch of posturing on the Sawx side to not include Ellsbury and Lester or more likely to keep Buccholz out of the deal.  I mean he had a terrific 30 games for Boston( remember Shane Spencer)but in AAA he was 298/360/380 which are hardly superstar prospect numbers and he’s a year older then Melky.  On the other hand Boston had a great year with Crisp in CF and statistically Crisp is one of the better defensive CFs in the game.

Personally I would not trade Melky/Hughes for Ellsbury/Lester

Agreed.

Yeah, the Red Sox are in such good shape here, as there is no way Ellsbury is THIS good, and yet they get to trade him when everyone thinks he IS (and the Twins can definitely sell it to their fans easily, as Ellsbury is an easy guy to sell to fans).

Although I find it stunning that the Red Sox would be able to get Santana without giving up either Lester OR Buchholz.