That is so freakin’ awesome.

And the Mets didn’t even give up Martinez!

Well done by them.

Blessed be the name of the Lord.

If you understand the economics of the game, good news for the Mets is in fact bad news for the Yanks.

Twins ownership trying to bury the Yanks any way they can.  The asking price from teh Yanks is nowhere near what it was from The Mutts.  I hope he tears his rotator cuff.

So, we have Wang and Pettitte (another year older) at the top of our rotation, both very good starters but neither are the flame-throwing ace you need in the playoffs.  We have three guys (Joba, Phil Hughes and Ian Kennedy) in the middle with a lot of apparent potential, who become question-marks with their limited experience and development.  We have aging Mussina with big consistency issues.  We have an aging Rivera in the bullpen, and it’s hard to find another good, reliable reliever. 

With plenty of offense, we’re a good team.  But, will the improvement of young guys counteract the decline of old ones?  What reasons do we have to expect to do any better than last year in the postseason, or even expect to get there?  I’m sick of all the pressure put on the players and coaches to win it all, when other teams are improving more than we are.

PagsRags, what in the hell are you talking about? 

1.  It won’t affect the Yankees

2.  If the Twins wanted to mess with the Yankees, they would have traded him to Boston

3. It’s ugly to wish that a player gets hurt, unless he plays for the Red Sox or Angels.

Bill Smith’s legacy will probably be that he failed to pull the trigger on a trade for Phil Hughes when he had the opportunity.

tommyd, I think it’s obvious that the Yankees, this year, are NOT in a must-win-it-all mode.  Which is why Joba Chamberlain is not a Twin.

If you understand the economics of the game, good news for the Mets is in fact bad news for the Yanks.

Do you really think that this trade will adversely impact the Yankees’ ticket sales, TV ratings, merchandise sales, or revenue streams in any way? I don’t.

“Bill Smith’s legacy will probably be that he failed to pull the trigger on a trade for Phil Hughes when he had the opportunity.”

For the sake of the Yankees, let’s hope so!

“If you understand the economics of the game, good news for the Mets is in fact bad news for the Yanks.”

If you understand the economics of the game, you understand that signing a 29 year old pitcher for 7 years and $140 million is bad business.

It’s obvious to me.  But, Joe Torre got a low offer (in context, at least) after taking the team to the playoffs since I was 15.  When has this team ever not been in must-win-it-all mode?  I have never gotten an impression their goals have changed.  Honestly fgasparini, I hope you’re right.

I am excited for the Met’s fans in my life. I’m sure we’ll still take the season series 4-2 with secret weapon Tyler Clippard winning three games (one in relief).

Damn Pasqua (great name by the way): I hope it costs them significantly more than that.  And with regard to economics, the Yankees make a lot of money off television ratings because they rule the largest market in the country.  If that changes, which it can, so does the balance.  I have a much more bitter relationship with Met fans (who I grew up with and who also root for Bosox in an annoying manner) than with Sawks fans who I avoid at all costs.

Out of league, out of mind…

But, if Santana would have stayed in MN, we could have gotten him at the end of the season for nothing but money.  That’s the biggest cost of him going elsewhere.

Yes, if he goes to the Mets, that could compete with Yankees for fan appeal, perhaps ticket and apparel sales, and we miss out on the value Santana would add to the Yankees.  It hurts us in both those ways, I think.  But, that means we won’t face him when we play the Twins.  It’s a lot better than Santana going to Boston, where we would play him 4-5 times a year, and their rotation would get outta control.  It wouldn’t surprise me if the Yankees front office gave up on getting Santana a while ago, and just stayed in the hunt to help prevent Boston from getting him.

Remember, getting Santana would have cost the Yankees Hughes + Melky, and would have weakened the defense accordingly. 

But, that means we won’t face him when we play the Twins.

Yeah, but they’ll face him 1-2 times a year during the horseshit that is interleague play.

I’m happy he didn’t go to Boston, but I’m amazed the Twins settled for what looks like a very risky package.  I’d rather have had Boston’s or the Yankees’ offers if they were in fact the real offers.

SG you’re right about interleague, but I imagine that’s still less than we would face him on the Twins.  There is also a heightened threat we’ll see him in the postseason, if we make it.

I am glad he didn’t end up with the Sox, or even with the Yanks for the reported package that was originally offered, but the Mets package does not even stand up to either of what the Sox or Yanks were offering. You can debate the talent level all you want, but the Twins did not acquire anyone with MLB experience from the Mets, and that was supposedly a deal breaker with either the Yankees or the Red Sox - the Twins had to have someone that could help the team right away and that would allow Bill Smith to save face with the fans for trading away their ace.

WOOHOOOOOOO!!!!

I am so glad he’s off to NL oblivion. Honestly, sorry to say to you guys but the worst case scenario is that Santana is a FA next winter and you guys get him for free. I understand the relief here about not making the trades the Yankees were asked to do, which is pretty much dead on how I feel about the Sox’ proposals. But the prospect of NO deal… meant Santana to the Yanks for draft pix. Well, unless Cashman really is in charge, and the Kids all grow up this year… so maybe even then, it wasn’t going to happen.

Not to toot my own horn, but I’ve been calling Smith a fucking lunatic since this thing started. Now he’s going to open a new stadium with a bunch of prospects instead of either Santana or Phil Hughes. All along he exuded this ridiculous sense of empowerment, “I hold the keys to the greatest pitcher in the world.” But the fact is, the Yanks and Sox were the ones dealing from strength, which is what stocking the farm system is all about. Well played by both organizations. And now all the risk is with the Twins and Fred Wilpon or whoever cuts the checks over there.

[Admittedly, if I’m the Mets, I make the deal. After last year, what have they got to lose?]

I should clarify - the Mets didn’t give up anyone with any *appreciable* MLB experience (certainly not on the level of guys like Melky, Hughes, Lester, Buchholz, or even Ellsbury).

And with regard to economics, the Yankees make a lot of money off television ratings because they rule the largest market in the country. If that changes, which it can, so does the balance.

The Mets made it to the World Series in 2006 and the Yankees somehow weathered the mass exodus of fans from YES to SNY. They weathered so well, 4 million showed up at the stadium last year and YES surpassed their previous rating shares.

Great, great news for the Yanks. Twins were asking way too much from the Yankees for this to make sense, unless of course he ends up landing in Boston in which case, a Hughes-Cabrera-Kennedy package might have been justifiable. IMO this is the best-case-scenario by far for the Yankees. They avoid giving up the future of the team just to block the Red-Sox short-term; they avoid having to shell out a very high-priced contract; and one of the best pitchers in the majors lands in the NL with the Yanks having to face him twice at the most.

The Mets seem to be big winners here as they did not give up a whole lot and can afford to take on this contract. Twins on the other hand…..wow. They overplayed their hand so bad. They could have walked away with the likes of Phil Hughes or Ellsbury and ended of with this sad package from the Mets. Seemed from day one like they were waaaayy too high on Santana and grossly overestimated how bad the Yanks and Red Sox wanted him.

the Mets didn’t give up anyone with any *appreciable* MLB experience (certainly not on the level of guys like Melky, Hughes, Lester, Buchholz, or even Ellsbury)

Buchholz has 22.3 innings of major league experience.  Yeah, Humber’s 9 innings pales by comparison.  Gomez actually has more major league PA than Ellsbury.

It’s true that there was a lot of speculation about the Twins demanding MLB-ready players from the Yanks and Sox, but that’s all it ever was—speculation.  As far as how the different packages stack up, if the Yankees really did pull their offer and the Sox really did reduce theirs, then it’s as if Smith actually had the three reported offers to choose from at the same time and picked the weakest (or riskiest) one.

The Mets made it to the World Series in 2006 and the Yankees somehow weathered the mass exodus of fans from YES to SNY. They weathered so well, 4 million showed up at the stadium last year and YES surpassed their previous rating shares.

Yes, that was a great World Series.  The Mets would have beaten the Tigers if their pitchers hadn’t made so many great plays in the field.

Yes, that was a great World Series.  The Mets would have beaten the Tigers if their pitchers hadn’t made so many great plays in the field.

Didn’t it used to be bad form to confuse the Mets with the Cardinals?

Yes, that was a great World Series.

Shit, attempt to be snarky: failed miserably. Point still stands. Fans aren’t going anywhere.

Ah yes… the blandness of cold type. Point well taken George… though I’m a little agnostic on your little intramural NYC thingy.

then it’s as if Smith actually had the three reported offers to choose from at the same time and picked the weakest (or riskiest) one.

...it’s NOT as if Smith…

Kinda changes the whole meaning there.  Sorry.

Fritz Maisel never wished injurys upon his enemys. He was above that. So we should be.
If the Met went 120-42 I would be happy for Willie.
Then rip the throats out when it matters.

I’m picturing Cashman having a quiet toast with Hal tonight on a job well done. While not the best that could have happened, this had the opportunity to go much worse, and I’m excited to see how all this plays out.

I was picturing Hank having a quiet toast with some pole dancers and a Sri Lankan dwarf, but whatever. He’s the Boss.

Yo Frog: re Mr Mize,28 for 29 in stolen base attempts. Damn.524 K’s to 359 HR’s is pretty much contactland.
I remember Mickey on a guest shot on PIX in the mid 70’s laughing with Scooter about Carl Erskines 14 K game in the 53 WS. Mick said everytime a Yank K’d Mize was all over there ass on the way back to the dugout.
So of course Stengel said alright NL Boy, You go hittem. ....K
Big Cat was one of the very few guys from his era Scoot did not speak kindly about. I also seem to recall he was a big JRRobinson baiter in his Giant days.
Alabama guy,1947,go figure.

I’m picturing Cashman having a quiet toast with Hal tonight on a job well done. While not the best that could have happened, this had the opportunity to go much worse, and I’m excited to see how all this plays out.

I think that’s the correct read on what transpired. Too many people are focused on Hank, when imo, what this non-trade demonstrated is that Hal and Cash have emerged as the real axis of power.

I think that’s the correct read on what transpired. Too many people are focused on Hank, when imo, what this non-trade demonstrated is that Hal and Cash have emerged as the real axis of power.

Definitely a good sign.  Even if there was some internal debate/back-and-forth between Hank and Hal/Cashman, at least it demonstrated Hank isn’t about to run us aground.  I know a few have stated it before, but it’s almost a positive that Hank does all these interviews and distracts people from what the Yankees are really trying to build.

shame on me for actually having sportscenter on, but the guy just said that the twins passed on other offers…including the yankees offer of “Philip Houghes….and everyday players Robinson Cano and Melky Cabrera”. 

uh, yeah.

Joe Torre got a low offer (in context, at least) after taking the team to the playoffs since I was 15.

it’s pretty obvious from the Cashman/Bernie dust-up that there was a lot more frustration with Torre from the Yankee FO than just failing to win it all this year.

Honestly, sorry to say to you guys but the worst case scenario is that Santana is a FA next winter and you guys get him for free.

i know what you mean here, but when “free” really means $140M i would love to work my job for free…

i am not sure that this was a Hank vs. Hal/Cash thing.

if there is one thing Hank has been pretty clear about it’s that he is NOT going to pay a “Yankee tax” in trades anymore.

the Twins asked the Yankees for $50 and the Mets for $20. 

i could see Hank refusing to pay the tax.

maybe when it looked like the Sox were offering $45, he was ok playing $50.  but once he felt the Sox were kindof halfheartedly in the game, maybe he decided he didn’t want to get played in his first trade as “Boss”.

i am not sure that this was a Hank vs. Hal/Cash thing.

At least according to Tyler Kepner:

“...General Manager Brian Cashman opposed the deal all along. So did Hal Steinbrenner, the team’s money man in Tampa, Fla. Eventually, even Hank Steinbrenner, who had aggressively sought a deal early on, decided to pass.”

When you couple those facts that with reports that Hal has a 50% say in both financial and player personnel matters (which surfaced only after Hank repeatedly told every reporter who called him that the decision on whether or not to make the trade was his alone), it seems apparent when Hal sided with Cash’s position, Hank had little choice but to come around.

2 out of three of: Hank/Hal/Cash FAILED.  A package of Kennedy, Horne, Tabata,and Melky (who probably could be replaced w/Austn Jackson soon) should have easily landed Johan and, if the Yankees were being held up, it was a failure of diplomacy.  They should have at least stayed in the game to keep the asking price up.  When Johan signs for 5yrs, $110M this will look like the steal of the century and we enabled our cross-town rivals to get the goods.  DISGRACE.

That being said I’m glad we have Hughes and I love Melky.

the Twins asked the Yankees for $50 and the Mets for $20.

It was more like the Twins asked the Yankees and Red Sox for $100, and they would only offer $50.  While trying to play the AL East rivals off against each other and squeeze $75 out of one of them, the Mets came along.  So the Twins asked them for $200 (remember, it was supposed to be no deal without Reyes and the whole farm).  The Twins overplayed their hand so badly that in the end that they were left with the choice between $30 from the Yanks or Sox vs $20 from the Mets.  They took the $20 because trading with the Yankees or Red Sox and not getting Hughes or Lester or Ellsbury would have been an unmitigated PR disaster.  The trade they did make isn’t exactly great from a PR perspective, but it’s a disaster that can at least be mitigated.

Great negotiator that Smith fellow.

A package of Kennedy, Horne, Tabata,and Melky (who probably could be replaced w/Austn Jackson soon) should have easily landed Johan…

The key word in that sentence being should.  Should and would are not synonyms.  There is simply no basis in reality for believing that Smith would have taken a Yankee or Red Sox package that was only marginally better than the Mets’ package.  There were reports that the Yankees and Red Sox reduced their offers, probably to something like what you proposed.  The Twins turned those packages down in favor of the Mets’ offer.  They probably had a lot of reasons for doing so, including the PR issues alluded to in my previous post and the whole get him out of the AL thing.  There have also been rumblings since the winter meetings that Santana really wanted to go to the Mets all along, and he does have that NTC.

Bottom line is that this whole thing was way more complicated than you’re making it out to be.

well, according to this, the Twins called the Yankees yesterday and asked for WANG and Kennedy.

so i don’t really see how anyone “failed” except Bill Smith.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2008/01/30/2008-01-30_mets_strike_deal_with_twins_extension_aw.html?page=1

Maybe if Hank shut his pie-hole Bill Smith wouldn’t have tried to stick it to him at all costs (including helping his rival).

Santana, if healthy, is going to dominate the putrid NL this year, just like Pedro did his first year. But it is worth noting that the Mets traded away 4 of their top 6 prospects, which means they have absolutely nothing left to deal except an 18 year old outfielder at A ball and Mike Pelfrey and his lack of a breaking ball. They already had one of the 5 worst faarm systems in baseball. Now they are certainly the worst.

So they better win this year, because they have nothing coming up for the next 4 years and they are old at 2 spots in the rotation, at 3 spots in the pen, at two spots in the outfield, and at 1st and 2nd. And they are only young at SS and 3rd.

I, for one, am happy that the Yanks aren’t going to be like that next year.

The Mets are only the Yankees rival because it makes Mets fans really important. Aside from the 2 series they play during regular season, the chance of having to deal with them for the WS is slim.

Maybe if Hank shut his pie-hole Bill Smith wouldn’t have tried to stick it to him at all costs (including helping his rival).

Umm, dude, try the decaf.

Yup: Wouldn’t you take that with a grain of salt, if only because it’s got Madden’s name on it?

I, for one, would have been very happy to see the Yanks land Santana.  On the other hand, I fully understand the Yankees not wanting to include Hughes, Melky AND Kennedy in that deal. 

I think it may be the case that the Yankees saw their proposed deal (Hughes, Melky and whatever) as the best on the table.  IMO, this package was better than the one the Red Sox had floated out there and the one the Twins got from the Mets.  This tells me that the Twins were never really serious about trading Johan to the Yankees.  I think the Twins ownership did not want the PR hit of trading Johan to the Yankees (and the additional PR hit each time the Yankees came to town).  If that’s the case, I just don’t see how you can fault Yankee ownership for not getting this done.

The Mets are only the Yankees rival because it makes Mets fans really important.

Well OBVIOUSLY they’re big rivals!  Why else would MLB have them play each other during the “rivalry weekends”?  Duh! j/k

I’m happier that Santana is going to the Mets than Boston.  I’m happy to still have Melky (who I think is going to break out this year; not be a late 90’s Bernie, but OPS around .820-.850) and especially Hughes.  But yeah, I’d rather Santana went to the Cubs or Padres or something.  My brother is a Mets fan, so I have a personal stake in this; not wanting to hear about how well Santana is doing all year.

I know that Mets:Yankees::Whitesox:Cubs but I want Mets:Yankees::Clippers:Lakers. They have 3 core young regular players, 1 nice compliment in Church, and now a relatively young Ace to go with two young wildcards but potentially above-avg to good SP’s in Perez and Maine…and Wagner should be ok for 2-3 more years.  Yes, if they were in the AL they would be middle of the pack but they are in AAAA and thus one of the best teams.  I wonder how Maine and Perez project for 2008 (I hoope bad 2H 2007 is a sign of things to come) and how they would do in the AL East.  I’d guess they’d be league average to below.

On the other hand, I fully understand the Yankees not wanting to include Hughes, Melky AND Kennedy in that deal.

And you know what?  There’s a good chance that the Twins would have then come back and said, “Okay, that’s great, but now to get this done we need [Austin Jackson|Robbie Cano|100$ million dollars] too”.  I think drawing the line, “this is our best offer, take it or leave it” was the right thing to do.  Keeps the team from being fleeced, and lets everyone else know as well that though the Yankees are still willing to be top dollar (figuratively in this case), they aren’t going to let others dictate how much they’re willing to pay.  This is a good thing.

According to Bob Klapisch at North Jersey.com, the Twins were fishing for a deal with the Yanks that didn’t feature Phil Hughes:

“This was late Monday night, about 12 hours before the Mets would pounce upon their most dramatic trade in recent history. Twins’ general manager Bill Smith, in a panic to move Johan Santana, called the Yankees and admitted surrender: Phil Hughes was no longer a prerequisite, he said. Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested, Smith wondered?

The Yankees considered the idea, but only briefly and not seriously.”

I’m kind of surprised that the Yanks dismissed that offer so quickly, though I understand that Santana’s contract demands made any deal economically questionable.

Maybe if Hank shut his pie-hole Bill Smith wouldn’t have tried to stick it to him at all costs (including helping his rival).

only in your mind are the Mets the Yankees’ “rival”.

the Red Sox are the Yankees’ rival.  the Blue Jays, Indians, Angels, Mariners, and Tigers are the Yankees’ rival.

those are the teams that compete with the Yankees for a playoff spot.  the Mets do not.

yes, we get it, you hang out with some obnoxious Met fans.  you hate the Mets.  we get it.

try to remain objective.

and no, i don’t believe your theory that the success of the Mets will have any meaningful impact on the Yankees’ financials.  they will sell out every seat in the last year of the old stadium and then in the new stadium for longer than Johan will be an elite pitcher.

relax.

“A package of Kennedy, Horne, Tabata,and Melky (who probably could be replaced w/Austn Jackson soon) should have easily landed Johan and, if the Yankees were being held up, it was a failure of diplomacy.”

Agreed, that would have been the right move.  I have to believe Cashman takes that deal if he can.  There’s only so much room in a rotation and you’re not giving up any sure-fire stars.  The minor league system is still stocked with arms.  Santana, Joba, Hughes, Wang and whoever else pans out is the most dominant rotation in baseball by ‘09.  If this was possible, Cash dropped the ball.

Yup: Wouldn’t you take that with a grain of salt, if only because it’s got Madden’s name on it?

i could say the same about the Klapish report.

no one knows anything, that’s my point.

“The Mets made it to the World Series in 2006 and the Yankees somehow weathered the mass exodus of fans from YES to SNY. They weathered so well, 4 million showed up at the stadium last year and YES surpassed their previous rating shares. “

What 2006 WS were you watching? Last time i check the Cardinals won the WS’s in 2006, after they knocked out the Mets…I may have missed something, but am I the only person calling this out?

You have missed something.

I doubt that the Yankees turned down a Melky-Kennedy-prospect deal.  I also doubt what I read by beat writers during the Hot Stove League.  I’m calling bullshit on this.

I’d say its pretty clear the Yankees were out of this and made the decision a while ago, same with the Sox. Maybe they FO should have made the trade, maybe they made the right move by passing but saying they dropped the ball seems to imply some sort of last minute frantic decision, which seems like it was not the case. As posited earlier I’d venture to guess that the Yankees and Sox were both in it to make it more difficult for the other to pick Santana up, but neither wanted to give up the premium talent or the massive cash to trade for and sign him. Aside from this off season the Yankees seem to be trying to create a more flexible roster that isn’t weighed down by massive contracts that hurt the team in the back end and make it impossible to trade their players. And the deal Santana is likely to get seems likely to fit at least one of those categories.

No, wubba, some others called it out. It was an oversight…I somehow type faster than I think.

Anyways, if, as Madden claims, Smith called and asked for Kennedy + Wang, Cashman was very right to hang up on him.

If, as Klapish claims, Smith asked for Kennedy, Melky + top prospect, Cashman should have at least strongly considered it. And I’m sure he did; the organization probably had a very good reason for not moving on it.

And it’s not as if this was the last chance the Yankees had to improve their team. If Humberto Sanchez, Mark Melancon, JB Cox and Chris Garcia come back strong from injury, there will certainly be a glut of very talented RHPs bumping up against a 25 man roster already near saturated with young pitching. At mid-season Cashman could very well be flush with trade chips and he could deal for a difference maker without subtracting from the big league roster.

If this was possible, Cash dropped the ball.

The key word there being “if.”  AFAIK, the only evidence that it was possible is some anonymous poster on this here message board making it up.

i could say the same about the Klapish report.

I was just about to, but you saved me the trouble.  In fact, the differences between the Klapisch and Madden accounts probably tell us all we need to know about the veracity of either.  Anyway, I wasn’t exactly sure where you were going with the News piece.  Thanks for clearing that up.

I may have missed something, but am I the only person calling this out?

Yes, you missed something.  Or four somethings, to be precise.

Olney reported the Klaspish rumor as well.  If that is to be believed, you pull that fucking trigger.  Pay the Santana his money.  I like Melky, but Johan is silly good.

Olney got pwn3d on this whole story every step of the way.  He was never the first with a new piece of information, and he was miles off base yesterday when the thing was finally going down for real.  The fact that he’s now parroting Klapisch’s BS doesn’t exactly add any credibility.

Actually, there is another possibility.  Maybe Smith did call Cashman and/or Epstein with proposals that didn’t involve Hughes or Lester or Ellsbury.  And maybe they said OK.  If Smith then said, “OK I need to get this approved by my owner, I’ll call you right back” then the right move was to respond with “No, that deal is off the table if you hang up the phone” because it’s obvious that he’s just trying to get a new bidding war started.

Yeah, the twins really needed to get either the red sox or yankees back in the bidding, even if they were still not going to trade santana to either one.  If what’s being reported now really was going to get it done at this time, there is no way the twins wouldn’t have taken something that was offered during the winter meetings, which were orders of magnitude better offers.

I don’t know why I should rejoice. I’m actually UPSET! The Klapish report does make sense (Kennedy > Guerra, Cabrera > Gomez, Top prospect (easy to find) > Humber/Mulvey). And if that report is true, it is outrageous! I mean, it’s Johan Frekin’ Santana. Are you telling me that Kennedy and Cabrera stood on the way of signing the best pitcher in the planet???

I think the big thing you’re missing is that from the Twins perspective, dealing with the Mets >>> dealing with the Yankees.  That’s something to consider.  If you believe the Klapish report, that’s your perogative, but it seems like filler to start discussions rather than hard journalism.

the mets got a bargain. What are the chances that they cannot sign santana within the 72 hour window? If that is the case then what happens?

This ***should*** get the mets to the top of the NL east? but then again a 7 game lead with 2 weeks(approximately) to go should also get them to the playoffs.

And if that report is true, it is outrageous!

It’s not true.  OK?  Feel better now?

What lends credence to both Klapisch and Madden is how little the Mets gave up.

It’s not true. OK? Feel better now?

Oh yeah, you have no idea. You telling me that it is not true makes me feel SOOOO much better! Like Rich just said, the Mets gave up very little. Besides, Madden and Klapisch both reported similar things though they did not agree on the players. So they must have heard something along the lines of Kennedy + (-)right?
Anyways I believe Kennedy, Melky, and another prospect would have done the job and this is a disgrace and Cashman and company better hope that Kennedy and Melky turn into studs. Otherwise I will be very angry for a very long time.

Besides, Madden and Klapisch both reported similar things though they did not agree on the players.

Are you guys serious with this crap?  The “reports” were wildly different, but you think that means they corroborate each other?  Wow!  Just freakin’ wow!

Go back and read the Klapisch story again.  It should be painfully obvious that he’s trying to bait Yankees fans with a complete fabrication of a scenario where Cashman passed on a chance to pick up Santana on the cheap.  You can practically hear him giggling as he typed it.  Now go re-read the Madden piece—he is obviously schilling for the Yankees with this BS about how the Twins finally relented on Hughes only to ask for Wang instead.  It is absolutely ridiculous to give either “report” any credence whatsoever.

So, Hughes, Melky, Horne, and another prospect couldn’t get it done during the winter meetings, but Kennedy, Melky, and a prospect were going to get it done now?  You need to take into account the yankee tax that the twins were going to add on to the package, you can’t just look at what the mets were giving up. 

Madden and Klapisch both reported similar things though they did not agree on the players.

So, they agreed on the twins calling the yankees?  This is an indication that they didn’t make it up?

SG- I’d be curious to see what the projections look like if and when Bedard gets moved and Santana signs his extension with the Mets.  Not that we face Santana more than once or twice a year, but subtracting him and Bedard from the Yankees divisional schedule has got to be some sort of silver lining to this whole thing (I personally believed that the price would get low and Cashman would swoop in and outbid a low Mets offer, but it didn’t happen for whatever reason.)

I was just commenting to my Mets-fan friend last night that I was excited that Santana was going to the NL and that Bedard very well might be leaving the division.  That subtracts two very talented, left-handed pitchers from the schedule (at least reduces the number of possible meetings).  I feel like the fact that both are left-handed might have more of an effect on the actual results of 2008 than the projections might indicate, unless the projections are more sophisticated that I’m aware.

I miss those Fritz Maisel threads from back in my youth.

DaPuj,

in 2006, the Yanks faced Santana once and scored 4 runs in 6.1 innings.  No decision for Santana; the Twins came back to win.

in 2007, the Yanks faced Santana once and scored 2 runs in 7 innings.  Santana got the win.

in 2006, the Yanks faced Bedard twice; he gave up 3 runs in 12 innings, winning one decision; the O’s lost the other game.

in 2007, the Yanks faced Bedard three times; he gave up 3 runs in 21 innings, winning twice; the O’s did win the third game.

So in the last two years, the Yankees saw Santana twice and roughed him up a little once.  Can’t see how he’d factor in a projection much; he’ll see the Yankees anywhere from 0-2 times, depending on the rotation.

As for Bedard, he slapped the Yankees around last year.  Having him in another division COULD help a tiny bit, although the Yankees could still see him as many as three times (or as few as zero).  Let’s say he pitches against the Yankees just once—I can’t see two fewer Bedard starts impacting a projection much either.

Obviously, the change from Bedard to journeyman affects the O’s overall, as the change from Santana to journeyman affects the Twins, and from Journeyman to Bedard affects the M’s.  But we’re talking about what, POSSIBLY 4-5 win differential one way or the other, and some of those wins will come in games that don’t matter. 

(For example, maybe the O’s will lose more games to KC this year than last—that has no impact on anything.)

Anyway, my by now very labored point is that the Yankees may have gained nothing from these moves.  The Angels are probably bummed, as are the NL East teams, though.

Thanks for those numbers.  I was definietly too lazy to look them up.  I wasn’t having any grand delusions of this making a multiple win difference for the yanks, I was more thinking about just those few games, maybe one more breaks the yanks way than before.  Basically, I was thinking in fractions for the projection, and then was just commenting on the lefty thing as an interesting thing to ponder.

Go back and read the Klapisch story again.  It should be painfully obvious that he’s trying to bait Yankees fans with a complete fabrication of a scenario where Cashman passed on a chance to pick up Santana on the cheap.

First of all, I can believe a reporter may twist the words a little to convey a certain message. But I strongly doubt a reporter will make a “complete fabrication”, not to mention just in order to stick it to a fanbase.
Anyways, let’s put it this way. A package led by Kennedy and Cabrera is much better than that package the Mets offered. Do you seriously believe that Smith did not call Cashman asking for an offer that is better than the Mets’ package even if it does not include Hughes? Wow! Just frekin’ wow!

“Do you seriously believe that Smith did not call Cashman asking for an offer that is better than the Mets’ package even if it does not include Hughes? Wow! Just frekin’ wow!”

I believe that IF Bill Smith REALLY asked for a package headed by Kennedy and Melky, it would have gotten more consideration; but I think the Twins probably asked for more.

As for Bedard, he slapped the Yankees around last year.  Having him in another division COULD help a tiny bit, although the Yankees could still see him as many as three times (or as few as zero).  Let’s say he pitches against the Yankees just once—I can’t see two fewer Bedard starts impacting a projection much either.

While I’m sure it won’t affect the projections that much (a win or two here or there as you mentioned) it certainly will be felt when we’re looking at the Yankees schedule throughout the summer. We don’t know how Girardi will handle these guys, but Abreu for one often sat out during the games with tough (and sometimes not so tough) LHP on the mound.  Perhaps we’ll see the effect of Bedard being in the AL West with Abreu staying in a groove, and likewise for guys like Damon and Giambi.

Still, at face value, I’m glad we may not have to see those guys as much anymore.

It is absolutely ridiculous to give either “report” any credence whatsoever.

Oh please. Both reports offer support for the idea that the Twins were willing to do the deal without the inclusion of Hughes. Both reporters, for all their faults, have good sources.

Olney also reported that “the Twins wound up taking what was probably the fourth-best offer they saw during this process.”

It is absolutely ridiculous to dismiss that.

Besides, Madden and Klapisch both reported similar things though they did not agree on the players. So they must have heard something along the lines of Kennedy + (-)right?

except in one of the sources that “+” is Wang.

that is an absolute gigantic difference.

Oh please. Both reports offer support for the idea that the Twins were willing to do the deal without the inclusion of Hughes. Both reporters, for all their faults, have good sources.

i really don’t understand this argument.  yes, but in one of the articles, “without Hughes” meant WANG AND KENNEDY.

am i taking crazy pills?

i really don’t understand this argument.  yes, but in one of the articles, “without Hughes” meant WANG AND KENNEDY.

am i taking crazy pills?

My “argument” (I’d call it an observation) is simply that the articles in question have credence in reporting that the Twins made an offer that did not include Hughes, not that the Yankees should have accepted the offer.

Why does one have to take “crazy pills” in order to accept that premise?

My “argument” (I’d call it an observation) is simply that the articles in question have credence in reporting that the Twins made an offer that did not include Hughes, not that the Yankees should have accepted the offer.

ok, i guess i was not following the conversation as closely as i should have.

to me, it’s not important whether or not the Twins DID make a non-Hughes offer.

to me, it’s only important WHAT their offer was.

one reported offer is something worth considering, the other is a start-laughing-hang-up-the-phone offer.

to me, it’s night and day.

without that piece of information, i don’t see the point of debating whether or not Smith actually called Cashman to discuss alternatives.

but if that was simply your argument, then i concede you are probably right.

If we go back to part of a quote posted in 54…

Instead, the Twins asked for Ian Kennedy, Melky Cabrera and a top prospect. Would the Yankees still be interested, Smith wondered?

The Yankees considered the idea, but only briefly and not seriously.

Okay, Twins asked for Ian, Melky, and “top prospect”.  If that top prospect is ALSO Austin Jackson - and yes I know that two CF’s are in the mix then - should the Yankees just pull the trigger?  What if they countered with Tabata, the Twins said, “we’ll think about it”, and then called the Mets?

Even if none of the reporters are “fabricating” anything, that still doesn’t mean they have the whole story.  And certainly I haven’t heard anything that makes me think Cashman just dropped the ball on this.  I don’t think Smith ever had any intention of trading Santana to the Yankees, and only would have if he was blown away by the offer.

the other point here is the reality of the power structure.  if Hank and Hal both want the deal, it gets done no matter what Cashman thinks.

if Cashman wants the deal and Hal OR Hank don’t want it, it doesn’t get done.

if Hank and Cashman wants the deal, and Hal doesn’t, it *probably* doesn’t get done.

if Hank wants the deal, and Hal and Cashman don’t, it doesn’t get done.

in other words, Hank COULD overrule Cashman if he had Hal on board.  it is more likely that Hal blocked this deal.  now, i think Cashman *agreed* with Hal, but in the end that wasn’t as important as Hal opposing it.

I put little credence in reporters telling us the “behind the scene” story.  They are depending on sources that could very well be using those reporters to influence the matter at hand.  Maybe the reporters are fudging the facts a wee bit, but that’s just to increase the readership - drama sells.

I have a feeling the Twins went to the team that could readily afford Santana, had the prospects they (Twins) wanted and aimed high.  That team was the Yankees.  I’m sure they approached Boston, or planted the thought in the media to drive up the price the Yanks would pay, to capitalize on the zero-sum game that has become the Yanks/Red Sox rivalry (at least in the eyes of many).

The Yanks didn’t bite.  Neither did the Red Sox.  Sounds like they took the best offer that was left because Santana wanted this thing resolved.  I doubt Minnesota could gauge what NY and BOS were willing to trade because the latter two were always basing their package off of the other’s.

Yeah, Minnesota didn’t get as good of a package as the potential NYY or BOS ones, but we don’t know how true those offers were.  Plus, it’s not a bad haul considering Santana was a goner at the end of the year.

I was reading some stuff on ESPN and Buster Ohlney was stunned by the trade claiming that this deal was the Twin’s 5th best option on the negotiating table.