Carl Mays - 1921
Carl Mays is for killing Ray Chapman with a pitch. Although it was not believed to be intentional, he was supposedly an ornery fellow. He was also a pretty good hitter for a pitcher, hitting .268/.313/.350 over his career.

You might want to edit that so it says he was KNOWN for killing someone with a pitch. At first glance it looks like he is in favor of killing someone with a pitch. I know its stupid but im sure people wont bother to read the link and not understand.
Anyway love the lists keep it up, pitchers and catchers so soon.

This is a bit off topic, but how well do people think Phil Hughes needs to pitch this year in order for the local media to resist headlines like, “We didn’t trade for Johan Santana because of THIS guy?”

“Don’t act like you’re not impressed.”  - Wes Ferrell

IE, he needs to pitch better than Santana, which almost certainly isn’t going to happen.  When Santana is 11-2 at the all-star break and Hughes is 7-4, there will be a column by Bill Madden about how Cashman is a number-cruncher who doesn’t understand the value of an “ace” and one by Murray Chass about how ironic it is that the big-spending Yankees turned penny-pinching at the wrong time.

Yes, my view of the mainstream media’s intelligence is that bleak.

I’m fairly certain that no matter how Hughes pitches in 2008 we’ll be reading stories about how the Yankees didn’t trade him for Santana.  Of course they’ll be written by the same clowns who chastised the Yankees for not drafting Craig Hansen…

What about the clowns who chastised Cashman last summer for not giving up Ian Kennedy and Melky in order to acquire Eric Gagne?  Indeed, Frog, one isn’t being bleak in underestimating the intelligence of the mainstream media - merely realistic.

I don’t know if this would make the table too busy, but any chance you could add a column for pitching runs above average for the Yankees top 10?  I think it would be interesting to compare the batting runs with the pitching runs to see a total contribution for those years.  I’m looking forward to the full pitching tables.

How about that 356 psOPS+ in 1955? If an average pitcher had an OPS of .288 that year, sheesh, what were some of the below average lines like?

Thanks! It must have been pure hell for pitchers against the Yankees during the 1930’s. Some days, 1-9 were all killers… And two of them were Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig.

Agreed, Frog. Bill Madden will write an article about how Cashman doesn’t understand the value of an “ace” and, in the same piece, continue to insist that ace-in-waiting Joba Chamberlain remain in the bullpen, failing to understand the irony.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02122008/sports/yankees/its_a_setup_97303.htm?page=1

The Post reports the Yankees plan with Chamberlain is to prepare him in spring as a starter, to use him in April and May to bolster the bullpen while other youngsters (or Farnsworth) grow into the 8th inning role, send him to AAA in June to stretch him out, then bring him back up in July as a starter, with about 90 innings left on his odometer for the year. Seems like a good plan to me.

I’ve read about that plan, but it doesn’t seem quite realistic to send Joba down to AAA, particularly if he’s healthy and effective, in the midst of a pennant race.  Far more sensible would be a plan that involved him pitching 2-3 innings per appearance (and this would be easy given that Mussina, at the very least, will probably almost never pitch more than 5 innings at a clip) rather than putting him in the 8th inning role and then losing him for a month while he’s “stretched out.”  Some other circumstances will almost certainly come into play as well.

The most interesting part of the article to me is about Melancon:

“Melancon has just 62/3 innings of pro experience. But some Yankee executives are so enamored with his recovery, arm and, especially, his makeup that they think he could be this year’s Chamberlain, rocketing through the entire system to the majors.”

Exciting.

haha thanks for the change Sg.

anybody else think the best approach for joba is to mimic what the twins did with santana? they had him all over the bullpen to increase his versatility. Maybe JC (savior to the Yankees???) is best suited to be middle to long relief in order to build up stamina and jaybe he could be thrown into a few 8th innings to get him used to high pressure situations, although undoubtedly he seems unfazed by pressure only bugs.

Responding to my own post:

“But some Yankee executives are so enamored with his recovery, arm and, especially, his makeup that they think he could be this year’s Chamberlain”

Of course, I don’t remember Joba getting any outs with his makeup—unless “makeup” is code for “slider.”

I hope for the best from Melancon, but even if he follows a Joba-like trajectory, that still doesn’t put him on the big league club until mid August.  Also, from what I’ve heard, Melancon doesn’t quite have all his velocity back at this point.  Supposedly, he’s throwing 92 mph whereas before he was reaching 95 mph.  In any case, I’m optimistic that either Albaladejo or Ohlendorf can at least provide semi-reliability out of the pen.  Also, if Farnsworth starts out well, Cashman should look to sell high immediately.

I like the idea of Melancon as well (his two seamer supposedly moves like a slider), but the reality seems somewhat further off. With him and Humberto Sanchez, I’m going to expect recovery and development in the minor leagues and nothing more. Anything more will be gravy.

But beyond those two, the Yankees have arms that can very well contribute later in the year. And if not contribute, then be part of a midseason trade for a reliever who can.

IE, as far as sending Joba down to AAA goes, I think it’d also be to help get him on a fixed schedule and work his curve and change into more regular use. Scranton would be a better place to do that than Fenway.

I really wonder what Billy Beane’s asking price would be for Huston Street.  The A’s as currently constructed really won’t be needing a closer in 2008.  Moreover, Street is only 24 years old.

George, Joba can use his curve and change if he pitches 2-3 frames at a clip rather than being used in the 8th inning role.

“Scranton would be a better place to do that than Fenway.”

What about Kansas City?  Oakland?  Those are going to be kind of like Scranton.

Stottlemyre hit an inside the park grand slam?

... had seven career homers, including an inside-the-park grand slam on 7/20/65 vs. Boston ..

Re: Hughes.  I think that if the Yankees are winning, there won’t be *too* much about how he should have been traded.  If at the end of May the Yankees are 6 games ahead of the Sox, and Hughes is pitching decently (ERA under 5, over 5IP per), there won’t be many “should have traded” articles, because no one will want to read them.  Sure there will be some because NY sports reporters seem to be unimaginative. 

If of course the Yankees are losing, and Hughes isn’t pitching like an ace, there will be lots of criticism.  Remember too that Kennedy may be the one who has the harder time - I’ve seen some comments, I think in chats, about, “The Yankees weren’t willing to give up KENNEDY for Santana!!?”. 

Re: Joba, I think the idea of him going to AAA is partly the, “if things go as well as we hope” philosophy.  Usually they don’t, but sometimes they do.  Again, if the Yankees are 5-6 games up at the AS break, and they have 4 or 5 reliable relievers besides Chamberlain, why not send him down?  What will be interesting to see is if things DON’T go as well as they hope, how it is handled.

Houston Street would be a sweet pickup.  If he were to do well, I know a place in Manhattan where some advertiser could put up a billboard.

The only trouble, Frog, is that his name is Huston not Houston.  In any case, Beane seems willing to stockpile minor leaguers at this point and I wonder whether he’d take someone like Horne or Marquez plus a B level guy like Gardner.  Having Street would not only give the Yanks a proven successor to Mariano but it would also unequivocally guarantee that Joba is used as a starter.

I could see the mediots in the tabloids publishing side by side comparison charts of Hughes v. Santana’s performance almost every day no matter how well Hughes pitches, but you can’t make decisions based on how morons will react.

By the way, Mike K., even if the Yanks are up 5-6 games at the All-Star Break, that doesn’t mean the team can just coast their way to the division title while Joba fine tunes his pitches in Scranton.  Sending an effective, healthy pitcher to AAA is going to be problematic under just about any circumstances.  The Yanks would be better served by stretching Joba out in the majors by going multiple innings.

When talking about offensive season of Yankee pitchers how could you leave out Jeff Weaver in 2003? I was pretty offended…..

Thanks, SG! Very cool! I had no idea Red Ruffing was such a good hitter. Kinda sad that there are years when the Yankees have gotten better offense from their pitchers than from their DH in recent years…

By the way, Mike K., even if the Yanks are up 5-6 games at the All-Star Break, that doesn’t mean the team can just coast their way to the division title while Joba fine tunes his pitches in Scranton.

I agree with you, mostly.  We really need to see how the season goes to decide what is best.  Personally, I’d rather he was regularly pitching 2-3 innings per outing instead of one, and then maybe let him get 2 starts in Scranton to “stretch out” his innings. 

But can I clearly say now, in February, that it is wrong?  I can’t.  After all, Moose and Wang may both be hurt coming out of ST, and the Yankees are using Joba for 5 innings every fifth day for April, and it is a moot point.  OTOH, all the starters could be pitching 6 plus innings, and all the relievers so well Girardi is having difficulty giving everyone enough innings, and it makes the most sense to send Joba to Scranton to get work.  The former is more likely but…

Also, I’m surprised that Mike Hampton’s 2000 and 2001 didn’t make this list. Were his at bats (79 and 61) not enough to qualify? Because I can’t imagine having an OPS+ of 122, as a pitcher, wouldn’t put him at least 14 BRAA.

I was pretty offended…..

Nicely done!

As for Joba, Mike K, I think you’re right: Circumstances will largely dictate what happens and it’s hard to declare what’s right and what’s wrong in February. But if Nardi Contreras, Eiland, Girardi and Cashman think a few starts in AAA is the best way to lengthen him in the middle of the season without risking his health or the team’s chances, it’s hard for me to argue the logic.

It’d be sweet to snag Huston Street - and it seems the Yankees have the chips for it. But I’d bet Beane waits for the July deadline, when he can better exploit teams that reek of desperation.

I don’t know if this would make the table too busy, but any chance you could add a column for pitching runs above average for the Yankees top 10?

Ruffing 1930: 14 BRAA/14 RSAA
Ruffing 1936: 13 BRAA/19 RSAA
Ruffing 1935: 12 BRAA/29 RSAA
Caldwell 1918: 12 BRAA/3 RSAA
Bush 1924: 12 BRAA/16 RSAA
Ruffing 1931: 12 BRAA/-8 RSAA
Ruffing 1932: 12 BRAA/34 RSAA
Caldwell 1917: 11 BRAA/2 RSAA
Mays 1921: 11 BRAA/37 RSAA
Ruffing 1941: 11 BRAA/ 4 RSAA

Also, I’m surprised that Mike Hampton’s 2000 and 2001 didn’t make this list. Were his at bats (79 and 61) not enough to qualify?

Mainly that.  I have Hampton’s 2001 worth 11 BRAA and 2000 worth 8 BRAA.

It’s interesting to compare this list of top hitting pitchers with the Yankees’ top hitting DHs.  You’d think that the DHs, even though they’ve had many fewer seasons to play, would be significantly better than the pitchers, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

I think there’s a few things at play with that sabernar.  It’s a lot easier to hit better than an average pitcher than an average DH so it was easier to put up a season that is relatively more valuable as a pitcher.  Also, the Yankees have not had a true full-time DH for most of the DH’s history.  If they had someone like Edgar Martinez or Paul Molitor who was penciled in for 600 DH PA in a few seasons they’d have a much better list of DH seasons.

But if Nardi Contreras, Eiland, Girardi and Cashman think a few starts in AAA is the best way to lengthen him in the middle of the season without risking his health or the team’s chances, it’s hard for me to argue the logic.

That’s a pretty big “if” though.  Sherman cites un-named “team officials in his opening paragraph, which just says what we already knew—Chamberlain is going to prepare for starting during spring training, but then start the season in the pen.  There’s no quotes from any of the people who are actually going to make the decision, so I’m hoping that this is mostly Sherman’s own theory/speculation.

Besides, it’s very easy to argue the logic: if Chamberlain is only going to pitch 140 innings in 2008, it would be incredibly stupid to waste any of them in AAA.  See?  Piece of cake.

Getting back to the Santana model, folks should check out his game logs from 2002 and 2003.  There were no “stretch him out” periods, and his relief stints were mostly pretty short.  He had one 4 inning relief appearance each year, one 3 inning outing in ‘02 and 2 in ‘03, and a total of six appearances where he threw more than 2 but less than 3 innings.  Everything else was an inning or two, or even less than an inning.  So the idea that he was used in some kind of semi-hemi-demi-quasi-pseudo-starter pattern is something of a myth.  He was rarely asked to go all the way through a lineup when he relieved.

Looks like the Kevin Mench era is over before it started.

MC, I was making the (not outrageous) assumption that the Yankee officials involved in the decision making re: Joba were the pitching guys. And the article didn’t really read like it was Sherman’s theory, rather something that was outlined for him by his “source.” But maybe that’s just me.

Besides, I said it’s hard for me to argue the logic. If you have no problem shooting the idea down, that’s cool. But, ya know, we’re probably talking about 15 innings over three appearances. I wouldn’t call that incredibly stupid, nor the end of the world. Not when it comes to protecting arguable the best right arm the Yankees have had come through the system in my lifetime. I’ll choose to give Contreras, Eiland and Co. the benefit of the doubt.

You do have a point re: Santana. He was never put in a contrived “stretch out” period. He seemed to swing between starting and relieving seamlessly. In 2002, at about the same age as Joba, he started the season in the rotation then went to the bullpen. Vice versa in 2003. And he always seemed capable of spot starts.

How they will use him this year is anyone’s guess. As long as Eiland and Girardi are resolved to eventually landing Joba in the rotation, I’m fine with using him however they think will best help the team. On February 12th, that seems like it’s pitching in high leverage/pre-9th inning spots (or the 8th inning for simplification), but if it morphs into become a swing man for Moose because he can’t get through 5, or a full fledged member of the rotation off the bat because of injury, then so be it.

Any thoughts on what it might take to land Blanton? Is it worth it? I admittedly having the 6-weeks-before-the-season-starts-starting-pitching-worries.

How about a Blanton-Street blockbuster? Man, I am bored.

40 effin shutouts for Melstott! I never knew.
He needed them all for the middle 8 years of his career.
I remember him pounding sinkers hard and not walking many. Scooter may have made me a bigger Mel fan than was deserved but 40 shutouts is 40 shutouts.

How’s tricks, thurm?

As for Blanton, he plays in a pitcher’s park and doesn’t strike out all that many batters.  Why would the Yanks want him?  Street makes sense, depending on what’s being asked for in return but Blanton is just a run of the mill righty.

No tricks IE. Shoveling the effin driveway. Wish I could train Thurm the Katt to do it but he is wee thumbless feline
Shutout perspective..
Clementime-46
Maddux-35
Carlton-55
Seaver-61
Ryan-61
Gator-26
Koufax-40
Whitey-45
Gibson-56
Mel looking pretty studly there.

Thats a wee thumbless feline.

“Also, the Yankees have not had a true full-time DH for most of the DH’s history.”

So… Jeter?

Thurm, I say this with love, but you must be typing with your thumbs.

villainx, thats harsh but amusing. Poor jete gets more shit here than he surely deserves. That said I couldn’t give you an arguement.
Fgas, Stop loking in my windows,Itz kold out n eye want to keep ewe alyvve untill the seezen startz.

I’ll choose to give Contreras, Eiland and Co. the benefit of the doubt.

And again, thats fine.  I just don’t see any reason to give them the benefit of any doubt before they’ve actually done, or said, anything about this issue.  It’s also fine for you to trust Joel Sherman and his ilk more than I do when it comes to drawing clear distinctions between reporting and opining, but you don’t actually think that his source for this is Cashman or Contreras or Girardi or Eiland, do you?  Things do get lost in translation, you know.

but you don’t actually think that his source for this is Cashman or Contreras or Girardi or Eiland, do you?

No, I don’t think those guys were his source. Just the ubiquitous “source close to the discussions.” I guess we’ll find out soon enough if Sherman really did get the scoop or not.