Have we really given up on the Moose for this year?  He was excellent in ‘06, despite being a 6-inning picher on his good days.  Maybe his crankiness and unpredictability isn’t worth the bother (money) anymore, but I imagine he’ll settle into a solid groove for 2-3 months later this year.

After Mussina’s lackluster performances so far, I look forward to a Wang, Hughes, Clippard rotation front eventually.

I’m not ready to give up on Moose (yet).  It is certainly possible that last year was the fluke and the decline that began in 2004 and continued in 2005 is real.  But it’s also possible that he’s just going through a rough-patch right now.  Remember too that in a few weeks, Mussina will only have to pitch a little better than a league-average #4 to be valuable (since Clemens, Pettitte, and Wang will be in front of him).  So 6-innings ERA of 4.5 would actually be quite good.

Like so many slumping players, Moose can still recover.  But he had nothing last night, and has shown little this year.  Like Cutter, I find myself looking forward to a rotation of Pettitte, Wang, Clemens, Hughes, and Clippard.  Is Moose still hurting?

Mussina can provide a good outing here and there, but I doubt we will ever see him as a front of the rotation guy. We’ve seen this with Kevin Brown, Randy Johnson and now Moose. Any chance he’d be willing to take a trade to the Phillies and get some of the last year of his contract off the Yankees’ payroll and be closer to his hometown in PA while playing in a more pitcher-friendly league?

I turned on the game and it was already 3-0 Boston.  The next pitch from Moose was clocked at 85mph.  I knew right there we were in bad shape.  Bad Moose throws 85mph.  Good Moose throws 89mph.  Hope (pray, whatever) that Good Moose shows up more often than Bad Moose.

Much more frustrating, however, was the offensive ineptitude.  Julian Tavarez, people!  Well that and the call at 2nd base that immediately preceded the final implosion.

There is no way that I would have given Mussina more than a one year contract.

Cashman has made more than a few mistakes as GM.

Also, I think Horne is too low on Top Prospect Alert’s list.

Why does Torre refuse to use Phelps against virtually any RH pitcher?

They cannot continue to start Mientkiewicz at 1B with Abreu, Cano, and Damon having subpar seasons.

Moose had a rebirth of sorts with a reinvented change of sorts last year.  But if he’s not getting his fastball up to 88 or 89, the change is not going to be effective.

There is no way that I would have given Mussina more than a one year contract.

This sentiment seems to be spreading right now, with some even saying that Moose shouldn’t have gotten ANY contract, but it feels a little unfair.  With the options available in the off-season, two years for Moose at a reasonable price seemed like a good move at the time.

Cashman is trying to both rebuild AND contend at the same time, which is not so easy to do.  Sometimes, it involves trying to squeeze out a couple of extra years from a veteran player who can hold a spot until younger players are ready.  So far, Mussina isn’t doing such a great job of holding a spot, which can happen.  It’s frustrating, but it doesn’t necessarily mean the signing was a mistake.

I’m getting worried that Cashman is going to become a scapegoat here.

There is no way that I would have given Mussina more than a one year contract.

Lets say it’s a choice between Mussina walking (because someone else, like the Cubs, did offer a two year deal), and giving him a two year deal, do you still say that? Obviously he hasn’t been good so far anyways, but it’s possible he wouldn’t have agreed to a one year contract.

99% of us here where very pleased with the Mussina signing. He came at a bargain rate for the market given his 2006 stats. I think the big question is, as someone mentioned, the rebirth of his change up in early 2006 masked what was a decline in 2004 and 2005.  Let’s hope..

If the offense had come up with one or two timely hits last night, Moose could have left after 6 innings with something like a 6-4 lead. For a guy who is really a #3 or 4 starter now, that would be a fine effort against the best team in baseball. I don’t think we can expect a whole lot more. Torre left him in in the 7th to save the bullpen I would guess. Hopefully that will prove beneficial tonight.

More than that, Crisp was out on the steal attempt. Moose should have had a decent 7 ip, 4 r line

I’m gonna blame this all on the Jeff Weaver trade. We should have kept Lilly.

And Cashman made the right move signing Mussina. Who the hell knows where his velocity went, but it was there last year.

Bad calls happen. Do you think that bad call affected Mussina? I certainly do. Remember when he blew up against Toronto when ARod threw that ball away at home?

There is no way that I would have given Mussina more than a one year contract.

then he would have left.  and maybe that was the right choice, who knows…

but you have to pay what the market is giving. 

teams would have lined up to give Moose the deal he got from the Yankees.

the one thing that i think is tough is that the guys on the Sox have seen Moose SO MANY times.  he’s out of tricks.

Manny hit a HR on his 98th plate appearance against Moose.  you have a Hall of Fame hitter who has seen the same pitcher a hundred times….it’s not easy.

Moose can still settle in as a slightly overpaid #4, but being a #4 comprises a 3.50 ERA against the Royals and Twins, and a 5.50 ERA against the Red Sox and Indians…if Moose got that call at 2nd last night, you take your 4 ERs in 7 innings.  that’s about what we can expect from moose against a good team.

the one thing that i think is tough is that the guys on the Sox have seen Moose SO MANY times.  he’s out of tricks.

While I agree that is probably the reason for some decrease in Moose’s effectiveness against Boston, you can’t look past the fact that his velocity was in the 86-88 mph range, and his suckiness is directly related to that decreased velocity. Whether it’s a lack of sharpness across all his pitches, I don’t know. But I do know that when his fastball is not 90-91 mph, he is much less effective.  And the problem is he’s been that way just about all year.

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Couldn’t you say that Moose having seen the Sox so many times should help him know all their weaknesses?

Although we’re really only talking about about 1/2 their lineup.

Frog - I think the benefit goes to the hitters when they see a pitcher more often. I think most guys would agree with that, but I don’t know.

L-girl - Good deal. Interleague play sucks. Some teams play shitty teams from the other leagues on a regular basis, while other teams consistently get the best teams just because they’re similarly located.  All in the name of ticket sales.

Hey Mussina was horrid but the lineup was pathetic also in failing to do any damage to a mediocrity like Tavares.  When do we give up hope on Abreu and I know it’s second guessing but who wouldn’t prefer to have an unhappy Shef here.  Also I don’t know if I would have given Moose a two year contract but GM’s are paid to make more difficult right decisions then wrong.  Cashman has been excellent in terms of holding on to prospects but his personnel decisions have been less then stellar.  And of course if George had not listened to Doc Gooden Vlad would be here instead of Booby and if the Yankees had not been penny wise and pound foolish Beltran would be in center instead of a possibly rapidly aging Damon.

Excuse making in progress.

As expected, and I posted this on another thread here yesterday, Mussina is complaining about the extra day of rest between starts.

Don- Call me crazy, but I do believe they basically told Mussina to sit on it with his idea that an extra day of rest is too much for him to overcome and pitch well. They could have easily went Moose on Monday and Wang on Tuesday, but I’m guessing they wanted the better pitcher out there to get the first game.  I like the move - Moose’s whining shoulnd’t be rewarded. Short rest is a legit complaint, but extra rest? Come on.

While I agree that is probably the reason for some decrease in Moose’s effectiveness against Boston, you can’t look past the fact that his velocity was in the 86-88 mph range

oh absolutely.  no doubt.

all i meant is that he might be able to get by with crappy stuff against some other teams who are less familiar with his off-speed stuff. 

you will basically know in the first inning what moose is going to give you these days.  and i knew the game was lost after about 12 pitches. 

Also I don’t know if I would have given Moose a two year contract but GM’s are paid to make more difficult right decisions then wrong. 

here is the problem.  cashman has to make that decision BEFORE the free agency period begins.  he had a certain time to resign moose or let him test free agency.

let’s say he lets him walk and then watches the market for pitching EXPLODE.  now you have Pavano, Randy, Wright and Wang going into the winter meetings.  what if Pettitte decides to stay in Houston? 

i think he had to at least have one other pitcher besides Wang that IN THEORY you count on for 180 IP and a 4.00-4.50 ERA.  it hasn’t worked out that way, but ggiven Moose’s year last year, it wasn’t a bad assumption.

I was at last nights game (very depressing).  Mussina was throwing batting practice speed. But the most depressing thing was having Abreu come up late in the game with runners on, he’s the best friend an opposing pitcher can have
I’ve watched almost every game and he’s ended just about every rally the yankees have had

I heard the game was delayed 7 minutes last night and that threw Mussina off.  See nomaas.org for a visual on Mussina

Moose was aware of his poor velocity last night and not having a fastball that he could trust kept him from leading in counts. I was surprised that he battled as well as he did. It’s got to be scary throwing inside to guys like Ortiz when all you have is 86 mph. Don’t know if he will regain his velocity, but it’s hard to see him anywhere close to last year until he does.  For the record, re-signing him was the obvious right move (at the time.) 20/20 hindsight is of little value when you have to make decisions. I think you lay that loss at the feet of the offense. Though the Rameriz homer set a tone, you can’t win games with 5 or 6 hits very often and particularly if they are not homers. Yeah the guy was out at second and that kind of crap keeps happening against NY for some reason this year.  I also thought the homeplate ump was more generous throughout the game with low strikes for Taveraz and not so for the Moose.  To be fair, the night before it should be acknowledged that the ump may have cost the Sox some production on a strike call on Youk that helped get NY out of an inning.  Breaks come and go, but this year some of the bad calls have really turned games against the Yanks.

Wouldn’t it be reasonably efficient, when Clemens joins the club, to DL Mussina, so that he can go to the minors and rehab (specifically to gain some speed on his fastball)?

At this point in time, you have to like throwing DeSalvo (who I am not in love with or anything, as he looks like he is getting it done with tricks and mirrors) out there more than Moose, right?

So let Moose build up his pitches and THEN let him pitch against major league hitters.

Would anybody else have given Mussina two years?  And if not could they have done one year with a club option.

all i meant is that he might be able to get by with crappy stuff against some other teams who are less familiar with his off-speed stuff. 

Agreed.. I think he’s screwed if he’s got not other tricks up his sleeve.

“Would anybody else have given Mussina two years?”

Yes. He was somewhere around the 4th-7th best pitcher in the AL last year, with a very good K/9 rate (9th in the AL) and he’s only 37. This is not something anyone saw coming before this April.

Would anybody else have given Mussina two years?

Well, people gave…

Gil Meche: 5 years, $55M,
Miguel Batista: 3 and $25M,
Vincente Padilla: 3 and $33.75M,
Ted Lilly: 4 and $40M,
Jason Marquis: 3 and $28M,
Woody Williams: 2 and $12.5M,
Jeff Suppan:  4 and $42M,
Jason Schmidt: 3 and $36M,
El Duque:  2 and $12M,
Jamie Moyer: 2 and $10.5M,
Adam Eaton: 3 and $24M, and
Mark Mulder: 2 and #13M…

So I think someone would have given Mike Mussina at LEAST 2 years.  The only contract I would’ve like better than Moose’s was Jason Schmidt’s.

Would anybody else have given Mussina two years?

i think the Mets would have.  maybe the Orioles or the Phillies.

point well taken

Let’s not write Moose off based on 29 innings.  It’s waaaay too early in the season.

maybe the Orioles or the Phillies.

The Orioles probably would have given him 5 or 6 or 7 at $18 per. They never cease to amaze me.

No that’s not right.. I was trying to make a point that the O’s make stupid signings.