best chart o the year

Torre never would have used Robertson unless the Yanks were winning by 97 runs.  He just didn’t have that experience nor was he a proven veteran.

It’s really fun to watch the pen now though, isn’t it?

If by “fun” you mean I’m not sweating bullets when they hand the ball over with a one run lead, then yeah, tons o’ fun.

Not to pile on Torre, but…oh, why not.  It’s virtually impossible to prove, but don’t you just know we’d be seeing Hawkins in the 7th/8th of close games if Joe T.  were still managing?

I still hate seeing Farns in the 8th, but I don’t mind riding the hot-hand/contract year performance.

OTOH, the DODGERS are in FIRST!!!11!!!1!

I’m rooting for any team to win the NL West with an under 500 record.  What’s more, if the Yankees do not win the WS, I want the NL West team to winit but still be under 500 after the playoffs.

Can hapen plz?

“virtually impossible” or, simply, impossible.

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I fall more in love with Ichiro with every article:

http://tinyurl.com/6gjgoy

Indeed, the pen has been fun.  We might also appreciate this last pass through the rotation:

Mussina         6 IP 1 ER
Chamberlain     6 IP 1 ER
Pettitte           8 IP 1 ER
Ponson           5.2 IP 3 ER
Rasner           5.2 IP 2 ER

That’ll do, starters.  That’ll do.

Wasn’t Torre bashed on this very site for using Farnsworth in ‘high leverage’ situations? Yeah, he was.

But Kyle is pitching like it was 2005. Oh, yeah, his walk year , again.

I specifically checked fangraph when Scott Proctor got hurt. and he had the HIGHEST leverage of all Dodger RP while sucking the most.

of the RPs that’s been with them almost all season, the most effective so far is actually Hong-Chih Kuo. who of course is used as the mopup guy.

According to ESPN anyway (which uses the original pthyg formula), the Yanks expected record and actual record are now equal.  So they really are playing as well as we can expect.

Yeah, but who pitches teh eight?!?!?!?!

Torre used Farnsworth.  Girardi used Farnsworth.  Farnsworth has been better this year.  I don’t think it has anything to do with the manager and everything to do with the fact that Farnsworth is a volatile relief pitcher.

I do think Girardi has been better at using guys like Giese, Robertson, Edwar and Veras (but still not, for whatever reason, Britton).

but still not, for whatever reason, Britton

Not entirely fair.  The last time Britton was called up, Girardi promised to use him more.  I don’t think it was very long before Britton got hurt and went on the DL.  He’s back pitching in Scranton, but who is he going to replace right now?  Hawkins makes sense, but I think Hawkins is with the team until he is traded, or if not then definitely not until Aug 1st or after (depending on how he pitches).

With the bullpen pitching so well, I hope they are not rushing Bruney to the majors. Hard to forget that he was shaping up to be our best non-Mo reliever. Good starting pitching and a good bullpen.. if this offense doesn’t stay strong it’s a crime, this team can certainly make a run.

But Kyle is pitching like it was 2005. Oh, yeah, his walk year , again.

so in past seasons, Farnsworth wasn’t trying as hard to get batters out?

i don’t get that. 

also, last year was Mariano’s contract year and it was probably his “worst” season.  this year has been one of his best seasons.

i am not sure pitchers can just turn it off and on like that. 

i honestly don’t see how anyone can not give Girardi TONS of credit for Farnsworth.  and that DOESN’T necessarily mean that in this case, Torre deserves a similar amount of blame for Farnsworth.  i don’t know if Torre necessarily “misused” Farnsworth like he misused many of his other relievers.  he let Farns set up for Mo, and he just wasn’t all that good (though not bad in stretches in 2006).

but Girardi made Farnsworth his personal mission starting from day 1.  he said over and over he had confidence in him.  he stuck with him when he wasn’t pitching well and just kept going back to him, despite many of our objections.  i don’t see how anyone can argue that that unwavering confidence and backing from your manager isn’t at least PARTIALLY responsible for Kyle’s success. 

we can praise Girardi without it being a knock on Torre.

I wouldn’t blame Torre for Farnsworth.  Cubs fans can tell us how inconsistent he’s always been.

I would blame Torre for overusing Scott Proctor and Luis Vizcaino and under-using Edwar Ramirez. 

Jose Veras is a different pitcher this year.  His command, though still shaky, is much improved.  David Robertson was not available to Torre last year. 

I think the big difference is Girardi is spreading the work out better. He’s done a better job than Torre in making sure that pitchers are not being under-worked or overworked.  Everyone knows Torre overused Proctor, but performance is also impacted when a pitcher doesn’t pitch enough.

How anyone can refuse to acknowledge that Torre had some flaws in his bullpen management is absolutely mind-boggling.  Seriously.

i am not sure pitchers can just turn it off and on like that.

They can’t. But there’s more to pitching than just turning it on and off. Before a contract year, players can work harder in the off-season. They can study more tape, read more scouting reports, spend extra time with the pitching coach. There’s a million little things a player can do to make himself better season-to-season.

I’m not going so far as to flat out accuse Farnsworth of dogging it on his non-contract years—as you pointed out with Mo, this isn’t an exact science—it’s definitely possible to at least put yourself in a better position to suceed when the $$ is on the line.

The issues with Torre might be second and third order. I wonder how many relievers were not brought up at all because Cashman was sure Torre would not use them.

By the way,

Daniel Giese:  8 G…13.6 IP….0.66 ERA

Giese for Closer!

Dave Robertson has as many wins as Joba.

Kay keeps pointing out how no Yankee reliever is in the top 15 in appearances this year. That’s the difference between Girardi and Torre. Instead of 2 or 3 guys in the top 5, there are none. And not surprisingly, the bullpen, because it’s still fresh, is pitching better as the season goes on.

Girardi + better mix of arms = superior bullpen.  I love how well distributed the innings pitched are.

The bullpen has been my favorite part of the year, followed by Baseclogger’s performance.  A-Rod is making a run, too.

I sure hope the Yanks are putting together another second half run.  Does anyone know what Wang’s timeline is. or if they’re looking to bring ?  Did I hear late August?

Is it too much to ask for IPK to just put it together and become a decent replacement option for Ponson? That would seem to alleviate just about all of our problems.

Also, this whole issue with RISP, is, IMO, the main reason for the Yankees stock to be undervalued.  While I’m sure there is something to be said about a team’s approach with RISP, I’d think the overwhelmingly more important factor is the talent of the players coming to bat. That said, I expect the BA w/ RISP to catch up to what the Yankees hitters can really do.

Did I hear late August?

The most recent thing I’ve read is from Pete Abe, who said he spoke to Wang and he said he was looking at a September return. I believe his foot is still in a cast which comes off in 2 weeks.

Yeah, we don’t see Chien-Ming until September, and that’s if all goes well.

Agreed that Girardi’s been excellent with spreading the load.  That’s clearly part of it.  It’s hard to know how much of the improvement from Farns, Edwar & Veras is due to Girardi (either b/c of the way he’s deployed them, something else he’s done or said?), Eiland, or simply the variability of relief pitcher performance.

And let’s all keep in mind that it’s slighly more than halfway through the year.  Farns (any of ‘em, really) still has plenty of time to blow up.

Is it too much to ask for IPK to just put it together and become a decent replacement option for Ponson? That would seem to alleviate just about all of our problems.

He pitched well last time out. He didn’t have a lot of K’s, but when 7 and gave up one with one walk IIRC.

RE: Chicago people & Farnsworth
Chicago people would tell you not to pitch Farnsworth in day games b/c he’s still too hung over to see the strike zone.  Luckily thats not as much of a problem in NY since they play so few day games.

How sweet is Robertson’s 1.78 FIP?  It makes me giddy.

Eiland

This, to me, is more likely the key. The first thing I liked about Girardi is that he made the coaching staff a coaching staff instead of an old timer’s game. I love Guidry, but who knows if he is really cut out to be a pitching coach?

I’m listening to Kellerman and Kenny for the first time…these guys are good, wow.

I was at the game last night and hurried home to see a replay of the DP in the 6th where the guy (Kubel?) was called safe at first.  Of course ESPN didn’t show a replay….

How bad was the call?

He was out by the length of his spikes. It was a tough call, but the ump got it wrong.

I don’t think it’s necessarily that Farnsie dogs it during non-contract years. AFAIK, it’s a semi-empirically supported phenomenon that athletes typically perform better during their contract years. Anecdotally, I feel like I see this constantly in the NFL and NBA, and to a lesser extent in MLB.

Looks like there is some evidence presented here, although I’ll admit I didn’t give it a very thorough read-through (lazy). Just came up after a quick Google search.

I believe that Torre would have left Rasner in in the 6th. I’m not wild about Girardi so far, but he does handle pitching changes very well. Whether it’s Eiland’s influence is anybody’s guess.

Damon DH
Jeter SS
Abreu RF
Rodriguez 3B
Sexson 1B
Cano 2B
Cabrera CF
Molina C
Christian LF
Mussina RHP

I don’t think Sexson should be batting ahead of 2nd half Robby

How sweet is Robertson’s 1.78 FIP?  It makes me giddy.

I think Robertson may already be the best non-Mo bullpen arm.

I don’t think Sexson should be batting ahead of 2nd half Robby

This is an intriguing issue, IMO. The way Cano is hitting, he should be batting 3rd, especially if Abreu continues to be extremely pedestrian. However, I think the wiser move is to leave well enough alone, don’t fix what ain’t broke, etc, etc. He’s mashing now and that’s all that matters.

I’d like him batting 3rd too.  But I feel like Bobby is actually starting to heat up as well.

Man, I know this doesn’t really mean anything, but if we had last year’s posada, Damon takes LF and Giambi DH, that lineup would pretty much be amazing(Cabrera would be the only weak link).

Ah well, the new and improved bullpen helps distract me from that.

I don’t think Sexson should be batting ahead of 2nd half Robby

Probably due to the opposing lefty.  I wouldn’t make too much out of it.

Did i say Cabrera? I meant Cabrera and Sexson.

Re: Washburn. I’m a little torn in each direction.

On one hand, if it’s Washburn for Igawa straight up, you can argue that the likelihood of Washburn being more valuable in 1.4 years than Igawa in 3 years is very high, and at the same cost, it makes sense. Some of this nonsense I’m hearing about Jose Vidro makes things a different story.

The flip side of this is wondering what life will be like next year. As of now, I’m bring back Mussina and Pettitte on 2 year deals, running them out there with Joba and Wang, making a play on Derrick Lowe or John Garland, whoever wants the least amount of years, and letting IPK and Phil Hughes battle it out in AAA and provide depth along with Rasner. I suppose Washburn wouldn’t be the worst guy to use to fill that Lowe/Garland role, although he’s certainly a class below those guys, though with the cost (Igawa vice a 1st round draft pick) and short deal (he has 1 year left after this year), he may be worth it.

Cano’s OPS has gone up .045 points since the All-Star break. He’s actually with in spitting distance of a .300 OBP (.300 could happen today if he stays hot) and a .400 slg.

Cano is also hitting lefties much better than righties this year.

As of now, I’m bring back Mussina and Pettitte on 2 year deals, running them out there with Joba and Wang, making a play on Derrick Lowe or John Garland, whoever wants the least amount of years, and letting IPK and Phil Hughes battle it out in AAA and provide depth along with Rasner.

So you want to block two Major League ready pitching prospects, one with tremendous upside, for two years?

Giambi should play against lefties, thats why I did not want Sexson. And also I rather have Gardner than Christian by far.

Kellerman and Kenny just basically said that it’s hilarious that Veras and Farnsworth pitching the 7th and 8th comes across as allowing Robertson and Ramirez to develop in low stress situations when they are in actuality pitching in high leverage moments because they’re coming in with men on base tight situations. Pretty interesting point.

So you want to block two Major League ready pitching prospects, one with tremendous upside, for two years?

Yes. I think I would be comfortable with Washburn on a 1 year stint in 09, relying on Hughes and Kennedy for the inevitable spot starts throughout the year, but I don’t think it would be the end of the world for them to ease back into the major leagues with a year of spot starts and September call ups. I’ve always liked the idea of going for the high value guy instead of the high priced guy, and a logjam at, which is why I like Lowe and Garland.

Don’t get me wrong, I like Hughes and Kennedy. But what’s transpired this year has to be looked at in it’s true light. Hughes was terrible and is essentially missing the entire season with broken ribs. Kennedy rocketed through AAA in 2007, and if he were MLB ready as you say, he would be up in the rotation instead of Sidney Ponson.

Giambi should play against lefties, thats why I did not want Sexson.

Giambi is too old to play everyday. I’m sure they got Sexson in part so they could spot him.

And also I rather have Gardner than Christian by far.

Christian has hit better than Gardner and there’s a slight possibility that he actually hits the ball into a gap. I’d rather have Christian in there.

Giambi should play against lefties

I’m ok with Sexson playing to spell Giambi, and it makes sense that it coincide with (1) a day game after a night game and (2) a lefty on the mound. He’s got to play sometimes. I don’t think Girardi is just doing a IF LHP THEN SEXSON ELSE GIAMBI thing, but I could be wrong, it’s only been about a week.  Also, I don’t doubt that we’ll see Giambi by the 6th or 7th if they need offesne and are into the bullpen by then.

HOF pitchers traditionally have been blocked two or more years until they log 1,000,000 innings in the minors.  Duh.

but I don’t think it would be the end of the world for them to ease back into the major leagues with a year of spot starts and September call ups.

It wouldn’t be the end of the world, but it would screw with their development (Phil Hughes has absolutely nothing left to learn at the AAA level) and their confidence. And it would be a huge waste of resources. It’s pretty much the worst thing you could do in regards to those two players and the future of the Yankee rotation as a whole.

Hughes was terrible and is essentially missing the entire season with broken ribs.

And he’ll be ready to pitch in the Majors next year, just like he was this year, as long as he’s healthy.

Kennedy rocketed through AAA in 2007, and if he were MLB ready as you say, he would be up in the rotation instead of Sidney Ponson.

Kennedy is coming back from an injury and working on his command issues. It’s one thing to give him an extra month in AAA, it’s a completely different thing to condemn him to AAA for another TWO years.

I’m not comfortable giving Moose and Pettitte 2 yr deals.  Perhaps 1 yr deals and vesting options based on # of innings pitched or a player option for less money would be an effective compromise.  If only 1 comes back then I would think about the Lowe/Garland run (especially since the Yankees love and have success with sinkerballers).  I would be fine with with Hughes/Rasner/IPK/Ponson(? depending on rest of year & behavior) fighting it out for the 5th spot.  With the injuries to the starters I guarantee 1 if not more are in the rotation by mid May.

Giambi should play against lefties, thats why I did not want Sexson. And also I rather have Gardner than Christian by far.

Hopefully Giambi is just being rested and we won’t see this lineup against every lefty (but then again, tomorrow is an off day).

HOF pitchers traditionally have been blocked two or more years until they log 1,000,000 innings in the minors.  Duh.

Not sure which direction this sarcasm is going, but nevertheless, take away the 14 or so awful starts between Hughes and Kennedy this year, replace it with either a 4.75 ERA or 3 or 4 QS, and the Yankees may very well be in first place. I’m not saying Kennedy should be forced to toil in AAA for 2 years, but it’s hard to argue against him (1) benefiting from time in AAA and (2) the Yankees will need depth over the time he’s blocked, so he’ll likely be in the mix anyway.

My point I think is still valid - pick up Washburn and you have a nice 5 man rotation with depth, you shed Pavano, Farnsworth and Abreu, pick up Giambi’s option and you’re a +1 offense + defense OFer away from a solid 2009 team.

Hopefully Giambi is just being rested and we won’t see this lineup against every lefty (but then again, tomorrow is an off day).

I think Girardi’s handling of Giambi is another feather in his cap.  Girardi’s kept Giambi healthy while primarily playing first base, which I would never have thought possible at his age and with his past health history.

Washburn is having his worst year (84 Era+) and his age (34) suggests he is well into his decline phase.  I simply don’t see the attraction of picking him up (and no, never having to look at Igawa again doesn’t count).

And he’ll be ready to pitch in the Majors next year, just like he was this year, as long as he’s healthy.

Doesn’t Hughes have IP limit issues? He was 109 total in 07, and he’s logged 22 this year. He’s obviously not making it to 100, and in his age 23 season (next year) I don’t think they’d reset him and allow him to go to 150-160 which was the plan for this year. I could be way off, but I could see them letting him get to 100-110 this year via some winter ball, try to get him to 130-140 in 09, 160-170+ in 2010 and then 200+ on from there.  Those in and of itself is a problem if you’re penciling him in for full time rotation duty in 2009 and 2010.

Kennedy is a bit of a different story. He was ready for 190+ IP this year and will fall well short of that, which begs the same question as Hughes - how will they let him get back up to 170-200? It is very possible that it takes a year to do that.

Combine this with no guarantee of their effectiveness at the big league level, and ‘blocking’ them for 2 years is fine with me.  They come out the back end eased into MLB, at ages 23-24 and 24-25, ready to throw 200 innings.

I’m not saying Kennedy should be forced to toil in AAA for 2 years

That’s exactly what you’re saying.

but it’s hard to argue against him (1) benefiting from time in AAA and (2) the Yankees will need depth over the time he’s blocked, so he’ll likely be in the mix anyway.

It’s not hard to argue against either of those points at all. It’s really easy actually. You will waste Hughes and Kennedy’s time as baseball players, you’ll upset them and disenfranchise every young player in the minors hoping to get a shot on the Yanks (If Hughes can’t get a spot in the rotation, who the hell can?) and you will spend millions of dollars that should be spent on other things to build excessive and unnecessary depth.

pick up Washburn and you have a nice 5 man rotation with depth

You know Washburn is a terrible pitcher right?

am I the only one who thinks they should sell high on Farnsworth? Plenty of contenders looking for bullpen help (Brewers, Dbacks, hell, maybe even the Mets) that might want him since he’s been very good the last month or so, and if you can pick up a spare ML-ready player or a couple of prospects, why not go for it? Veras/Edwar/Mo is itself a good bullpen.

They come out the back end eased into MLB, at ages 23-24 and 24-25, ready to throw 200 innings.

That’s insane, you don’t stick top prospects in any level of the minors for two years just for the hell of it, especially a guy like Phil Hughes. It’s just not how to develop good baseball players.

You know Washburn is a terrible pitcher right?

Worse than Igawa? Would you rather have a year of 4.75 ERA of Washburn or hope for someday in a galazy far far away, 4.75 ERA from Igawa, which will most likely never happen? They cost the same.

you don’t stick top prospects in any level of the minors for two years just for the hell of it,

Neither Hughes nor Kennedy will have the innings capacity to be full time rotation dwellers in 2009 and most likely 2010 because of the time they are missing in 2008. So it’s not “for the hell of it” and ...

It’s not hard to argue against either of those points at all. It’s really easy actually.

I suppose if you find validity in Hughes and Kennedy’s feelings being hurt that they were once in the rotation and now are in AAA, then it is easy to argue against those points, but practically speaking, planning on having either of, or worse, both, Hughes and Kennedy in the rotation in 2009 and likely 2010 is not sound judgement, IMO.

nor Kennedy

I’m guessing with Kennedy there, since his limit going into 2008 was higher than Hughes’s limit, but as I said, I would not be surprised if they stepped him back up towards 200 by 30, instead of just letting him go right back there in 2009.

That’s exactly what you’re saying.

When was the last time (season) the Yankees didn’t need somewhere between 7 and 10 starters over the course of the year?

That’s insane, you don’t stick top prospects in any level of the minors for two years just for the hell of it, especially a guy like Phil Hughes. It’s just not how to develop good baseball players.

Part of this argument is moot - neither Moose nor Pettitte will get two year contracts.  I’m pretty sure Pettitte has already come out stating he wants to take this a year at a time, so if he decides to play after this - and if the Yankees want him - it will be a one-year deal.  Moose I think will be the same.

I’d have no problems signing 1 for a 1 year deal, provided they don’t also sign a pitcher like CC.  That makes Wang, Joba, Pettitte/Moose/CC, Hughes, Kennedy.  Signing both to 1-year deals (or one and another FA)?  Eh…see how the season plays out.  There could be concerns about Wang or Hughes’s health, and also there could be concerns about the depth provided by other pitchers in AAA.  I suppose I wouldn’t mind ONE of Hughes/Kennedy starting next year in AAA, again depending on how this season ends up.  Definitely signing three pitchers (Moose, Pettitte, FA) to 2+ years is insane, unless you are ready to give up on both Hughes and Kennedy now.

Worse than Igawa?

No, worse than Hughes and maybe Kennedy.

I’m guessing with Kennedy there, since his limit going into 2008 was higher than Hughes’s limit, but as I said, I would not be surprised if they stepped him back up towards 200 by 30, instead of just letting him go right back there in 2009.

We’ll see what happens, there’s no reason to believe they will IMO.

When was the last time (season) the Yankees didn’t need somewhere between 7 and 10 starters over the course of the year?

The Yanks have that many starters in the system. A front five of Wang, Joba, FA, Hughes, Kennedy projects well I bet. You still have plenty of depth (Aceves, Rasner, McCutchen, along with Marquez and Horne if they ever get back on track) on the farm to plug and play.

I suppose I wouldn’t mind ONE of Hughes/Kennedy starting next year in AAA, again depending on how this season ends up.

Nor would I, provided they aren’t being blocked by a non-entity like Washburn. It’s the signing two starters + Washburn that I think is ludicrous, as do you.

“am I the only one who thinks they should sell high on Farnsworth?”

I’m with you, but I dunno what he could really fetch in return.  Given the work from the rest of the bullpen, I wouldn’t mind trading him now, because he could go pumpkin on us at any time.

Neither Hughes nor Kennedy will have the innings capacity to be full time rotation dwellers in 2009 and most likely 2010 because of the time they are missing in 2008. So it’s not “for the hell of it” and ...

Kennedy will probably throw around 135-140 innings total this year, after 165 last year.  I’d imagine they’ll be looking at him to get about 180 next year.  That’s doable for a “full time rotation dweller”, especially with a healthy Wang(!), and either Pettitte or maybe CC to eat innings.

Hughes you are correct will have some more limits.  I’d still guess they’ll try to get him 150IP, though they may not push it that much.  If he slots in as the 5th starter, where they can occasionally skip him, that should also be doable.  Or instead if he is the one that starts in the minors they can control it more.

If things go well Kennedy will be able to pitch over 200 innings in 2010, and Hughes 180.  If things don’t go well…there are bigger problems then, no?

Farnsworth is eminently expendable given that Bruney is close to returning.  They also have Scott Strickland, JB Cox and Chris Britton stashed in AAA.  Between them, Veras, Robertson and Edwar should be able to handle the 8th and 9th innings. The only question is whether anything of value can be extracted for him.

If things don’t go well…there are bigger problems then, no?

I suppose thats exactly my point and perhaps Cowboy Popup and I shall just agree to disagree and move on.

More than any of the other injuries this year the Posada injury really has me down because (1)he’s one of my favorite players ever and (2)having a C who hits like a 1B is a huge advantage.  Now that he is out I think it is imperative that we get Damon playing a good LF and another C to platoon w/Molina (preferably one who hits RHP since Molina is better against LHP).  Also, Sexton’s reputation as a masher of LHPs is greatly exaggerated so I’d also look to upgrade the 1B/DH platoon.  Some guys who may make sense and are on teams probably willing to deal:

1B/DH: Teixera, Sweeney (crushes LH and is better out of OAK), Nomar, Dmitri Young, Aurillia

C: Zaun, J.Valentin, Bengie Molina, Saltamacchia (will cost a lot but crushes righties), Laird (hurt but due back), Johjima, Ross, Olivo, Barajas, Shoppach, Buck, Barrett

I’d trade IPK for Teixera contingent on us signing him within a 48hr window (unlikely I know). Having Teixera in our lineup with Giambi as DH would be great. Of course Matsui may in fact be able to come back.

No, worse than Hughes and maybe Kennedy.

I’m merely saying that if you can turn Igawa into Washburn, you should.

If you can turn Igawa into a used tampon you should.

Melky sucks from the right side of the plate.

Some CF who hit RH well: Kapler, Ichiro (Matsui+IPK for Ichiro/Johjima?), Vernon Wells, Rios, Freel, Winn, Pence, Byrd

Cashman should be able to acquire 2 of the 3: a platoon CF, 1B/DH, or C.