Great outing by Kennedy.

went to the game. it sucked.

this is my 2000th post. can i be a cashew?

eelz aim higher, go for a a pecan or something. And yes, I’m up at 3 AM.

I agree with you, Jonathan.  It’s best that Joba takes his lumps early (and often if need be) in the season.  He needs to know that he can’t survive on just his stuff and he’ll need to learn how to pitch.  And he needs to learn how to brush off an outing like last night’s and pitch like it didn’t happen.

Joba knows how to pitch.  If he were just a thrower, he wouldn’t be considered such a great prospect.  His command was off last night and he made a mistake.  Last season, Mariano blew games left and right early in the season.  That doesn’t mean he didn’t know how to pitch.  He just couldn’t execute his pitches.  In any event, as I’ve said before, the Yanks’ bullpen depth is what should ensure Joba’s place in the rotation come July rather than apocryphal proof that he’s less than dominant in the 8th inning.  Did anyone notice how good Veras looked?  His command has improved from last season.  Between him, Ohlendorf and Albaladejo the Yanks look to have some decent candidates to replace Joba in the pen.

What are Cliff Lee’s real stats this season?  What Jonathan posted above is clearly a mistake.

He’s 5-0, but that impressive sub-1 ERA is no misprint.

By far the worst loss of the season. It sucks to watch Joba fail, watching him seated with his head down in the dogout killed me. It hurt like hell.

I was impressed of how good Farsworth has looked lately. He is blowing hitters out with his FB. On the other hand, Veras looked good too. Last year his command sucked but it looks like he is improving.

I’m really not second guessing, because last night I was begging for Mariano to come in to face Garko with one out. I know that Joba is really good, but sometimes you can see when a piotcher just doesn’t have it. Joba walked 2 batters and got an out from a sac bunt, he really was struggling last night and with the best pitcher in baseball in the pen I think Joe had to go with Mo. But I know it wasn’t a bad decision to keep Joba.

IE - Joba didn’t have the best command last night.  He needs to learn how to pitch when his command isn’t there - or make the needed adjustments in-game to get that command back.  He still has a lot to learn and I wouldn’t count on him being a savior in the rotation just yet.  He’ll need to learn to pitch to MLB hitters who are seeing him the second or third time around in a game.  He hasn’t had to do that yet.  He can ask Kennedy how that transition goes.

Joba needs to learn how to deal with failure, but also how to get out of his own jams.  If he’s a starter, he won’t have Mariano to bail him out every time he gives up a couple - and he will give up more than a couple over the course of his career.  Hopefully this will a) teach the kid a valuable lesson and b) toughen him a bit.  Poor guy looked about ready to burst into tears on the bench. 

The nice(?) thing, too, was that he came back and got the next guy after that homerun.  He didn’t fall to pieces completely and start giving up hits left and right, which is good.  I hope Girardi sends him right back out there tonight.

In conclusion, Joba will be fine and the decision to leave him in wasn’t a bad one.  Also, the knuckleheads who booed the kid last night need to take a long walk off a short pier.  Assholes.

Oh, and just as I suggested in last night’s thread, some people are beginning to warm to Joba the starter idea.

You have to let guys work through their own problems. You can’t go pulling an otherwise dominant relief pitcher just because he creates a bit of a mess. Yeah, Joba was a little wild last night, but advocating to take him out in that situation seems like the ultimate second guess to me. How’s a guy supposed to pitch if the moment guys get on base he’s getting yanked? And what would that do to your bullpen depth?

As for the rest of the pen, I think all we can conclude so far is that relief pitchers’ performances are highly variable. The best thing you can do for your pen is to have scads of live arms so that you can sort through which ones are capable of helping you. The Yanks appear to have done this, and that’s good, but I don’t think we can conclude that this guy or that guy has turned a corner (especially Veras; come on, the guy has pitched two whole innings). Every year, this random reliever or that random reliever comes out of nowhere to be effective only to return the earth the following year. I don’t think that happens because a guy gets awesome and then forgets how to be awesome. I think it happens because when you have a job as prone to fluke events as relief pitching, guys can tempt fate for extended periods of time.

Anyways, the point of that long-winded paragraph is simply that I like that the Yanks have a ton of young guys who can throw the baseball, and I think collectively they can get a good performance from them, but I wouldn’t expect one or two of them to suddenly because elite relievers, even if they seem to be pitching like it.

And, yeah, yesterday sucked. More so for me, because my Indians fan friend showed up just in time to watch Joba blow it. *sigh*

wow.  people are second guessing the decision to let Joba Chamberlain pitch to David Delucci?

really?  Joba?

i guess every time the yankees lose these days it really is the manager’s fault no matter who is managing.  can’t simply be that a veteran hitter turned around a 95 MPH fastball that was up and in.

yup.

Also, the knuckleheads who booed the kid last night need to take a long walk off a short pier.  Assholes.

Yeah, this blow my mind. What? A guys not allowed to have *one* bad outing every couple of months? Gimme a fuckin’ break.

That’s one reason why many baseball aficionados rate Yankee fans as among the most obnoxious in the game.

wow.  people are second guessing the decision to let Joba Chamberlain pitch to David Delucci?

Crazy, isn’t it? 

What’s even crazier is you could make an argument that Kyle Farnsworth has been just as effective as Joba so far this year.

“baseball aficionados rate Yankee fans as among the most obnoxious in the game”

Some of you youngsters wouldn’t know just how much improved Yankee fans are from the days of the late 70’s.  In those days fans would run on the field and often throw bottles and other objects at opposing players. You might recall Chris Chambliss homer in 76 to win the pennant how they literally ran over fans to get to the dugout. Also when they won it all in 77 I remember Jackson running for his life to the dugout.  I can’t recall though whether that kind of atmosphere was exclusive to New York in that era. I know it wasn’t that way in the midwest cities (Minn and KC) where you might fear for your life or safety. The KC fans of the late 70’s were taunting and cocky but for the most part you didn’t feel compelled to hide your colors.

Actually, having visited YS on three occassions 79,92 and 01, I would say things have improved considerably in terms of Yankee fans behavior.  It seems to me that obnoxiousness is present to some degree in any location where a sports tradition is marked by success and even in some places where success has been hard to find. (ie: Wrigley Field) I went to the Yanks series there in 03 and felt very uncomfortable with the fans around me.

Wang pitching again.  Makes me wonder who the last yankee pitcher to start 7-0 was.

Also I remember some TV games where the Goodyear blimp viewed neighborhoods on fire near and around the stadium which I assume gave rise to the title of the ESPN movie.

What’s even crazier is you could make an argument that Kyle Farnsworth has been just as effective as Joba so far this year.

You could, but it would have to be that Farnsworth has done less damage than Joba, not that he’s pitched more effectively. Because he’s used in a less meaningful role, when he melts down it isn’t as costly. Of course, the flip side is that when he succeeds, it isn’t as helpful. Nonetheless:

So, yeah, in terms of WX, Farnsworth has contributed more, Joba has actually pitched better, in terms of preventing runs. And for comparison:

I know Mo will blow a game at some point, but so what? He is just awesome.

That game last night was seemingly winnable. It is probably true that Joba needs to develop through these kinds of situations. He couldn’t locate anything well to the first few hitters. If this were playoff time I would be very critical of Girardi staying with him or anyone else that was pitching so wild. The fact remains it is early May. I just hope he doesn’t get a complex over Cleveland as most of his problems to date have been with them.

Delucci has by the way a penchant for coming through as a ph. I read that it was his 8th or 10 ph homer of his career. He certainly improved a great deal “after” the Yanks got rid of him. Wedge continues to impress me as a field general.

You could, but it would have to be that Farnsworth has done less damage than Joba, not that he’s pitched more effectively.

I don’t know if I would use leverage-index to argue a pitcher’s effectiveness.  But besides that…some metrics have Farnsworth as being just as effective - if not more so - than Joba.  For example, =2008&league;_filter[]=1&team;_filter[]=NYA&Submit=Submit”]Pitching Runs Created Kyle has an 8/7 edge.  ERA they are identical (3.38), with Farnsworth having more IP.  Other metrics - such as FIP - have Joba clearly ahead.

To be clear, I believe that Joba is a FAR superior pitcher to Farnsworth.  I just think it is weird that you could actually have a rational argument over who has had the better season to date.  And, you do have to give Farnsworth credit; not a new contract or anything, just credit.

Drat!  Someone talking to me and I forgot to test my link…

Farns is more effective than Joba?  Oookay…

I guess the anti-statheads’ arguments do have some merit after all.

21: Mo is out of this world ridiculous. Best pitcher I’ve ever seen. I just put up a post at my blog comparing Mo to Pedro in terms of career arc. Mo has been a machine.

joba had a bad outing, who cares!

I don’t know if I would use leverage-index to argue a pitcher’s effectiveness.

Neither would I. That’s why I said that you could make the argument, but you’d have to make that assumption first. I prefer to measure reliever effectiveness in terms of run prevention. WX (or WPA or whatever) are a good way to measure what they have contributed with their effectiveness at run prevention.

I would not use ERA to measure their effectiveness, however, as it doesn’t penalize the Farns for letting inherited runners score. PRC appears to have the same weakness. Given that the Farns has a knack for letting inherited runners score, you have to take that into account.

Farns is more effective than Joba?  Oookay…

I guess the anti-statheads’ arguments do have some merit after all.

First, note that Joba has prevented more runs and has a lower Fair RA. He has been much more effective at preventing runs this year. His failures have also been more costly, in terms of win expectancy.

Second, remember that no one is arguing that we should expect Farnsworth to be more valuable going forward, just that he has been more valuable, from a win expectancy point of view. It’s possible, but extremely hard, to overestimate the impact of giving up a three run homer in the eighth inning with a one run lead. That hurt a lot. Farnsworth hasn’t done anything that damaging. Someone mentioned that Dellucci’s home run had a WPA of nearly 0.6. That’s just huge.

No one here expects this to be the normal state of things. It’s still early and this is just one of those weird early season flukes.

Makes me wonder who the last yankee pitcher to start 7-0 was.

I would guess it was Clemens the year he went 20-3 and won the Cy Young for no reason. I don’t think anyone has done it since. Well, Aaron Small, but I don’t think that’s what you meant.

joba had a bad outing, who cares!

I can’t believe it took 27 posts for someone to write that.

I can’t believe it took 27 posts for someone to write that.

I think it has been implied several times.

Farns is more effective than Joba?  Oookay…

I guess the anti-statheads’ arguments do have some merit after all.

PRC appears to have the same weakness. Given that the Farns has a knack for letting inherited runners score, you have to take that into account.

I’m not even arguing necessarily that Farnsworth *has* been more effective.  But I think an argument *can* be made - using several good, if not perfect statistics - that he has been as effective.  And I guess I started out with the fact that it is weird.  Many thought Farns would have been booed out of NY by now…and here he is becoming a trusted member of the pen.

joba had a bad outing, who cares!

I can’t believe it took 27 posts for someone to write that.

To be fair, many of the posts are about why one shouldn’t care/overreact. 

Mike, John, fair enough, that was a cheap shot on my part. Still, the anxiety levels of some of the posters seem to be through the roof right now. Sheesh!

How is Farnsworth a “trusted member of the pen” after one month of the season?  Has Girardi ever let him pitch the 8th?  Has he ever brought Farnsworth in for an especially hairy situation that needs cleaning up in the middle of an inning?  Farnsworth is what he is, an intermittently effective reliever who walks a maddening number of batters, gives up lots of HRs and is occasionally dominant.

What did SG and CAIRO predict for Joba this year? A few home runs, no doubt, and this was one of them. Unfortunately almost all of his appearances are in mid- to high-leverage situations right now, one more reason he should be a starter as soon as the plan for doing so allows. So every time he makes a mistake, it gets headlines. If that HR happens in the second inning of a 7-3 win, nobody cares at all.

How is Farnsworth a “trusted member of the pen” after one month of the season?  Has Girardi ever let him pitch the 8th?

well, he said “becoming” a trusted member of the pen.

which he is.

he’s putting up zeroes.  that’s valuable, even if it comes in the 7th inning and not the 8th.

i’m no Farnsworth fan, but it’s hard to watch him pitch the last few weeks and not have noticed that something is different.

IE - Couldn’t have said it better myself. Sometimes he “intermittents” his way to an entire effective season, but that doesn’t mean one should count on that unlikelihood nor that one should let it alter one’s expectation of his future performance.

Anytime the Farns manages to escape unscathed, I breathe a sigh of relief.

I can�t believe it took 27 posts for someone to write that.

I think it has been implied several times.

Even the idiot who posted the thread said to “take it and move on.”

Man I still haven’t gotten my economic stimulus package.

To echo others, a pitcher gave up a 3-run HR. In the 8th inning. Happens almost everyday. Let’s move on.

And why are we debating Farnsworth v Joba? Joba’s ERA is spiked up by one bad outing in a relatively young season (I am sure Farnsworth can make that claim as well, except he may have had a couple bad outings compared to one). Joba is a better pitcher, but I cannot fault Girardi to extract whatever he can from Farnsworth. So far, his bullpen management has been excellent. He has limited Hawkins’ outings to low leverage situations, and Farnsworth seems to have done reasonably well in some high leverage situations.

And why are we debating Farnsworth v Joba?

It’s not really a debate, just an observation that some measurements show that the Farns has performed better than Joba to date. No one expects that to continue. Some of us are amused by it. If there’s a debate, it’s not over Joba and Kyle, it’s over the merits of various reliever performance measurements.

The only thing about predicting a regression to the mean for Farnsworth is that there’s a wrinkle. Haven’t there been reports that he’s added a cutter to his “aresenal?” If so, and if he can throw it for strikes, mightn’t that make him a different pitcher, and make the slider, and straight fastball a little tougher for batters if they have to worry about the cutter too?

I mean, he’s given up 2 runs in his last 9 and 2 thirds. Selective endpoints to be sure, but I still think something has changed. Also his delivery looks a lot smoother lately than it used to. I’m bullish on Farnsy.

I’m gonna stick it to the Man and donate my economic stimulus to charity.  I am way too excited about this.

Mercy Corps does good work if you’re looking for a charity.

It’s not really a debate, just an observation that some measurements show that the Farns has performed better than Joba to date.

Exactly.  I’m starting to be sorry I brought it up.  I think there are some measurements - some respectable ones - that show so far Joba and Farnsworth have been of similar value so far.  Over a month.  I mentioned it is being “crazy” and “weird” because - come on! - did anyone their stats would be anywhere close after a month?  Even if it is SSS?  I felt better about Farnsworth than most (I thought it was realistic he could put up an ERA a little over 4 for the year), and I’m still surprised.

Do I expect it to continue?  No.  Though I think Farnsworth really *could* have an effective season (maybe making him an A free-agent).  Maybe he was right about communication with Guidry/Torre.  Maybe he’s just lucky.  If he keeps it up, I don’t care how he does it.

Man I still haven’t gotten my economic stimulus package.

We got ours I think 2 days ago.  Did you file electronically?  It will take a little longer if you didn’t, and then there’s the whole, “what’s your SSN” thing.  I also heard a rumor today that families get the stimulus quicker; don’t know if that applies to you.

I wish I could donate mine to charity!  I try, but I’m a small timer for that.  Salvation Army around X-Mas, 20$ here and there for charities, etc.  We’re going to take a small vacation, and pay off some debt.  And maybe go to a “Yankee Legends” game in Scranton in August.

show so far Joba and Farnsworth have been of similar value so far.

Looked up redundant in the dictionary, said “see redundant”.