Yeah, Proctor for Wigginton makes no sense.  Despite the shutout last night, the Yankees offense doesn’t need help, and defensively I think Phillips is probably better than Ty.  What this does do is weaken the Yankees in a position they could use help with, which is in the bullpen.  Proctor hasn’t been as good as last year, but he’s still been a pretty good relief pitcher.

I don’t necessarily think that Proctor and/or Farnsworth going means the Yankees are planning to bring up Chamberlain.  This is the case where the Post has been calling for Joba to be promoted, and they see the fact that a spot in the bullpen is opening, therefore (obviously) the Yankees are planning on promoting Joba.  It is just as likely that Britton (if he is close to coming off the DL) or Edwar will be promoted instead.  Or that Cashman is working on a different trade to bring a reliever in we haven’t heard about.

It could be Britton, depending on how he recovers from his abdominal strain. I didn’t even know he had abdominals.

You really think two months or less in the pen is gonna put him at real risk of overwork or hurt his development that much?  If anything, I think facing big league hitters will be a bigger help than mowing down AAA lifers.

Joba’s a starter.  If he’s in the pen, he’s going to be throwing mainly fastballs and sliders.  His other pitches will not get as much work. 

It probably won’t matter, talent is talent. He could thrive in the role, and it could have no impact on his development.  I don’t like the move, but that doesn’t mean it won’t work out well.  I’m wrong quite often.

Starting his career in the pen hasn’t hurt Johan Santana much. I think it’s a good way to get a guy adjusted to major league hitters while limiting the strain/workload on his arm. If we assume that Joba has 180 innings in him this year, I’d rather he pitch 150 starting in the minors and 30 relieving in the majors than 180 clearly innings against over-matched hitters.

I think starting young pitchers in the pen is great, if they are started as long relievers, like Santana was.  What I don’t like is the idea of Chamberlain taking Scott Proctor’s role as the daily 7th or 8th inning pitcher.  Short outings but more frequent usage.

Look at how the Twins used Santana in 2000.

30 games, 5 starts.
Average relief outing, 2.6 innings. An average of 6 days off between outings. 

That’s fine.  What I’d hate to see is:

25 games
Average relief outing, 1 inning.  An average of 1 day off between outings.

Anyway, I’m apparently in the minority on this so I’ll stop bitching about it.

That’s a fair point, and one I didn’t consider. Actually, my worst fear is that Joba will go Joel Zumaya on us and transform from a great starting prospect to a guy who just wants to pitch relief. I don’t want that. If Joba can’t make it as a starter, fine. Make him a reliever then. Until that point, may it never come, I hope the Yankees keep him on a starter path, even if it means pitching a few innings in relief this year.

What John Lynch said.

If we make a trade, the only person I want is Teixeira

I’d take Albert Pujols too.

not for nothing, but yankee fans have been bitching about the yankees’ bench all season.  and wigginton is a great bench player.

he plays 1B, 2B, and 3B with league average offense.  he is a pretty valuable player and a guy i would be thrilled to start the 2008 season with on the roster.

that said, is he worth proctor?  on paper, he probably is.  but you can’t make trades on paper of course, and in a world where the yankees need bullpen help themselves, i don’t know if i would make that trade either.

but let’s face it, proctor has been abused.  i would guess his days as an effective reliever are numbered.  his peripherals stink this year.

i think i would prefer Betemit if they are dealing proctor, but i think you guys are underrating wigginton a little bit.  also, you have to consider that wigginton or betemit gives them at least a league average offensive player to stick at 3B next year in the chance that a-rod leaves.

the way i see it, the yanks could be making 3 “trades” in the next 2 weeks:

Giambi for Shelley Duncan
Wigginton and Britton for Proctor
Hughes for Igawa

add in Molina for Nieves and i think the yankees will be vastly improved in the 5th spot in the rotation, slightly improved at backup catcher, improved at DH, and probably about the same in the bullpen.  and the bench will have gone from dismal to pretty good, with Molina, one of Melky/Damon, and one of Phillips/Wigginton.

top to bottom, the team would look very strong.

If we make a trade, the only person I want is Teixeira

this is a little silly.  there are plenty of players available that could help this team.

if the braves are really offering saltalamacchia for texeira, then the only way the yankees could beat that would be hughes or chamberlain, and i am not interested in that at all.

the yanks aren’t getting teixeira.  he’s a bit overrated anyway.

not for nothing, but yankee fans have been bitching about the yankees’ bench all season.  and wigginton is a great bench player.

Is Wigginton being acquired as a bench player, or is he being acquired as the starting 1B?  He’s a worse defender than Phillips, and probably not enough better of a hitter to make up for the cost of Proctor being dealt.

Here’s another potential problem I’ll through out, for if the Yankees trade Proctor.  We can’t assume that whatever reliever the Yankees get instead of Proctor (likely one of Britton, Ramirez, or Chamberlain), that the pitcher will be used properly.  Meaning, don’t you think it likely Torre will lean more on Vizcaino (a good thing until his arm falls of) and Farnsworth?  And some of those other innings will go to Villone, who it seems to me has shown he can be effective if not used a lot, but can’t handle a heavy workload?

I’m sorry, but I just can’t trust Torre to correctly use a young reliever in the pen, and I think that the other veteran pitchers will be overused even more than they are now.

BTW Yup I agree with you that Wigginton would be a HUGE improvement on the bench.  My first concern though is that he would start over Phillips.  My second is that Proctor isn’t the player I would want to give up for him.

Is Wigginton being acquired as a bench player, or is he being acquired as the starting 1B?  He’s a worse defender than Phillips, and probably not enough better of a hitter to make up for the cost of Proctor being dealt.

well, i am also talking about for 2008, since i think he has a year of arb left.

he’d be great as a bench player next year.

also, torre likes phillips.  think about when craig wilson was acquired to be the “starting 1Bman”.  they will probably share time.

maybe wigginton plays 2B against certain lefties.  they are vulnerable to lefties.  there is value there.

i would support a wigginton deal if we could dump farnsworth and a bunch of his salary. He serves no purpose because the only role he is willing to take on is one which he happens to suck at (8th inning). While proctor has not been as good as he can be he is still young, has good stuff, and can handle ny. Another big concern is in a few weeks we could have a cluster f*ck at 1b. With mientkiewicz and giambi coming back what do you do with philips and wigginton. I am of the opinion that if it is not broke don’t fix it. Andy is playing well so let him be. This reminds me of the end of last season down the stretch when we got matsui and sheff back and instead of letting the team continue to roll they bench melky and throw sheff at first base leading to an embarrassing division series.

mientkiewicz ain’t coming back.  giambi doesn’t play 1B.

it’s amazing what a week of blowouts against the devil rays and royals will do.  is everyone now convinced the yankees don’t need another RH bat?  they do.

Average relief outing, 2.6 innings. An average of 6 days off between outings.

If Torre isn’t smart enough to do this with someone on the existing staff, how the hell is he going to figure it out for Joba.

The Yankees could have used a long relief person all season.  This recently concluded series including.

also, farnsworth is less than 8 months older than proctor.

not that i don’t prefer to trade farns, i do.  but proctor isn’t really “young”.

By the way, I didn’t see last night’s game - but can anyone tell me how a no-name pitcher with a bloated ERA shut out the Yanks last night? 

As for the rest, I’d like to see Britton have a shot (or even Edwar) but chances are both will languish and, as Mike K. points out, Torre will merely give even more work to Vizcaino and Villone.

As for long relief, Jeff Karstens is supposedly slated for that job.  I have no idea who he is going to replace on the roster though.

By the way, I didn’t see last night’s game - but can anyone tell me how a no-name pitcher with a bloated ERA shut out the Yanks last night?

they had men on base almost every inning, but failed to break through.

it’s not like they were dominated.  but they didn’t do a good job of moving runners over when they needed to and had some bad luck as well.

grienke was fairly impressive though.

i only wish mientkiwicz wasn’t coming back (he has been fielding grounders this week) and giambi has played some first base this year. your right farnsworth is less than a year older than proctor but in terms of big league experience farnsworth has thrown 3 times as many innings as proctor and has likely hit his potential. I still see a ceiling that proctor has not yet reached. Maybe I am also partial to proctor because he is homegrown. Also, I hardly consider wigginton the rh bat that will balance our lefty heavy lineup. It’s too easy to point at the fact that we only have a rod and jeter in the right side and say “there is the problem.” The fact remains that most pitchers we will face will be rhp’s and when the lefties are playing to the “number’s on the back of their baseball cards” as michael kay likes to say, it doesn’t matter if it’s a righty or lefty on the mound.

i don’t care much what we do this summer/fall so long as its !) not trading Joba or Hughes for Teixeira or 2) signing torii hunter

Proctor for Wiggington, no.
Farnsworthless of Wigginton, yes.  In a heartbeat.  Want us to pay some of that salary, Tampa?  No problem…

Maybe I am also partial to proctor because he is homegrown.

are you more willing to trade him when i tell you he came from the Dodgers?

I don’t want them to sign Hunter. I am happy with Cabrera at CF.

The argument that Chamberlain would do fine in relief because Santana did is kind of silly, even beyond the very worthy points SG makes about how Torre would probably use Chamberlain differently from how Santana was used.

The only reason Santana initially broke in as a reliever is that the Twins had no choice but to carry him on the major league roster, even though he had never thrown a pitch at a level higher than Low A-Ball. If they had been able to hold onto him, but have him starting in the minors, they certainly would have done so. The Yankees have the option of leaving Chamberlain in Scranton to make four or five more starts and work on things. They can call him up at the end of August and pitch him in relief then, perhaps picking up some of the innings he lost with the bad hamstring in April.

I would hate to see Chamberlain martyred for the greater glory of a Yankee team that I just don’t think is that good.

aint that some shit. But not really, like i was saying he has room to improve whereas farnsworth does not.

I’m sorry to say that I called it yesterday as to having problems with another mediocre lefty. yup calls it exactly right today. The team is still very vulnerable to tricky leftys. The game may have turned on two missed chances Jeter had with runners on base. He hit two liners that were snared, one at second and one in short right. Had those produced some runs, it may have energized the lineup. Molina actually played a heck of a game. Two lead off hits, caught a foul against the screen and threw out a runner right after trying to steal. Yes, they need a scary righty bat to plug in behind A-rod. They just elected to pitch around him not only last night but pretty much the whole series. Meche said the home run pitch the night before went to the exact location he wanted with cutting action. Matsui is fine in the 5th spot against righty’s but I couldn’t disagree more with Kay that this lefty laden team can hit any lefty when they are on their game. Abreu and Cano and Matsui were all over-matched against this guy last night. Abreu played a terrible game and did his best to misplay a third out in the right field corner once again in the four run inning that turned the game. I have no problem with Melky in right and Hunter in CF next year or vice versa. Let’s hope Igawa is sent down today. That loss was costly last night. Is Boston that good? What happened to the Injuns offense? Wiggenton would help, but I agree Andy P deserves to play.

Ty Wigginton sucks. He provides poor to mediocre on-base and decent power, but he is a horrible butcher at second and third and is no great shakes as a first baseman. I’d rather see Durazo called up and Cairo jettisonned (with Phillips backing up third and second and Rodriguez backing up short). Of course that would never happen in a million years, but a boy can dream.

Also, Ty Wigginton is very ugly and I don’t want to have to see his face all the goddamn time.

BTW, I would like to resurrect the Abreu-Dye rumors. I think Dye would help and he has recently been power hitting to some degree. Don’t know if the Sox would want more, but aren’t both players FA’s? Throw in a mid-level prospect, but from my point of view, I would rather leave Phillips at first and improve the lineup out in right.  I realize Bobby has improved but the lineup structure overall demands more righty power IMO.

What’s the situation in the suspended game? Are the Yankees still batting or is it the beginnig of the bottom of the 8th? Who do you think “starts”? L-Viz?

The argument that Chamberlain would do fine in relief because Santana did is kind of silly

For the record, I am not making this argument. My argument should be stated as: “Breaking a minor league pitcher into the majors via the bullpen is not necessarily detrimental to development. We know this because other pitchers have done it successfully.” Johan Santana was simply my off the cuff example to demonstrate my point. Others have pointed out that he’s a bad example for a number of reasons. Point taken.

“Breaking a minor league pitcher into the majors via the bullpen is not necessarily detrimental to development. We know this because other pitchers have done it successfully.”

I certainly agree with this and, like I said, I wouldn’t object to seeing Chamberlain up in September (or just before, so he would be eligible for a post-season roster), but I want him to face AAA hitters as a starter until the end of Scranton’s season.

i believe chris ray is supposed to be pitching to abreu with jeter on 2nd and two outs. Ray is DLed so I dont know what that means. Meyers was the current pitcher and pitcher of record.

The only reason Santana initially broke in as a reliever is that the Twins had no choice but to carry him on the major league roster, even though he had never thrown a pitch at a level higher than Low A-Ball.

this is an excellent point.  santana was a rule V player.

actually he was taken by the marlins in the rule V draft and traded to minnesota on the same day.

do the rule V rules still apply?

What’s the situation in the suspended game? Are the Yankees still batting or is it the beginnig of the bottom of the 8th? Who do you think “starts”? L-Viz?

Viz cannot pitch, he has already been used.

Here’s an idea: why not leave Joba in the minors and give Edwar a real chance?  He’s been doing well since he returned to AAA, after all.  In some respects, I wonder whether Torre would even deign to use Joba, given that he’s far from being a proven veteran.

I thought the Yanks were still hitting when they called it.

How abuot Clemens to start the 8th. I think it’s his throw day.

How abuot Clemens to start the 8th. I think it’s his throw day.

I approve this proposal.

Can Joba pitch the 8th?

I can’t ever remember a team that was so feast or famine- shutdowns by Jackson and Delarosa sandwiching monster offense.  And our struggles against lefties continue.

JEter on secon, Matsui up. An insurance run would be nice, Hideki!

How does Johan Santana become eligible in a Rule V draft? I mean, some guys do just make the leap, but seriously, who looked at Santana and thought “This guy’s not worth protecting”? Does anyone know the circumstances behind this?

Looking ahead to 2008 for a second I`m assuming Damon will stay and play first and a RF’er or CF’er will be signed. If that happens then does that mean that we have Phillips and Wigginton both on the bench? I don’t think that makes much sense. So either Phillips who is hitting close to .300 will be sent down or Damon will go back to centerfield. Or of course A-Rod could leave. I don’t see how Wigginton fits unless Damon or Giambi are being traded. Proctor’s periphereals are absolutely terrible this year so it wouldn’t kill me to see him go and Cashman might just be trying to trade while he still has high value but I don’t understand where Wigginton will play

There’s a day off next week but Torre says he won’t skip his 5th starter though he wouldn’t say who his 5th starter is.  With Hughes seemingly locked in to pitch Sunday, and with the all star game layoff so recent, it would seem like a perfect time to skip the 5th starter.

When does the suspended game start?  At 7 pm and then followed immediately by the normal one?

Ooh, I like the Clemens throw day idea.

“There’s a day off next week but Torre says he won’t skip his 5th starter…”

Did he really say that?  Sigh.

Yeah, they ‘re starting the suspended game at 7:05 and after it is completed the regular game starts about 20 minutes later.

With Hughes seemingly locked in to pitch Sunday, and with the all star game layoff so recent, it would seem like a perfect time to skip the 5th starter.

there is no question this should be the move.  skip igawa and bring up hughes.

I thought Igawa’s next start would be skipped anyway.  Did I hear wrong?

“Yeah, they ‘re starting the suspended game at 7:05 and after it is completed the regular game starts about 20 minutes later.”

Oh that’s fucking lame.

What do you all think of Chamberlain’s old teammate at NU, namely Alex Gordon? Had a good series. He grew up just up the road from KC in Lincoln and it appears to me he’s being marketed as Brett II. I think he has a chance to be pretty darn good if not great. He was interviewed by Ty Kepner in the times regarding his regard for Joba and Alex says Joba would help the Yanks right now, FWIW. I hope Alex isn’t as good as George because that will mean some coming suffering for we Yankee legions. It will be good though for a clearly marginal franchise that has suffered themselves for a long long time.

re: Gordon.

i was impressed.

I think gordon was rushed he does not seem big league ready yet. George brett in his prime could not pull the royals from the gutter they are in. Although I believe there bullpen is their strongest point which is kind of unusual for a sub mediocre team.

Per The Star Ledger:

Word is that the Yankees are so motivated to trade right-handed reliever Kyle Farnsworth that they’ve offered to pay some of his $5.5 million 2008 salary in order to get a deal done. Interested teams include the Tigers and Devil Rays, but it’s unclear how much of the money the Yankees would have to pay to get a deal done. An official with one team involved in the talks, speaking on condition of anonymity because the deals are still in the discussion stages, said the Yankees could move Farnsworth even if they weren’t getting another reliever back in a trade, since they could replace him with someone from their minor-league system.

The Yankees are looking for bullpen help, with their eye on Kansas City’s Octavio Dotel—one of the most popular players on the market and one of the most likely to move by Tuesday. ... The Yankees are still quietly shopping center fielder Johnny Damon, trying to make room for Jason Giambi, who will have to be the DH when he returns. But Damon’s $13 million annual salary through 2009 likely makes any deal impossible.

Igawa was sent down; Basak was called up.

Trading anyone for a hitter would be like installing a screen door on a battleship.

It’s SUBMARINE! You sound like an idiot when you say it wrong!

According to Kay Olney says there is a trade market for Ughgawa

According to Kay Olney says there is a trade market for Ughgawa

If so, it would probably involve NL teams.

Ca$hman overpaid for Damon.

Ca$hman overpaid Farnsworthless.

Ca$hman paid for Igawa.

Ca$hman has done many bad things.

Cashman did hold on to Hughes, Joba, Kennedy and Tabata.

Olney said they thought he would do better in a more spacious park.  That doesn’t make any sense.  I suppose his base salary is reasonable anyway.

Trade market!? For Ugh! Ow! Uh! Somebody’s kiddin’, right? If not, get it done before they sober up. A bag o’donuts would suffice.

bebop — Didn’t say Ca$hman has done only bad things. 

As for holding onto Chamberlain and Kennedy, they were just drafted and signed a year ago.

As for Tabata, who knows? His lack of power numbers right now have diminished his prospect appeal, at least as of now. And he supposedly was way up in weight and needed to show up early before Tampa games to work off the excess weight. So again, who knows about him right now.

Maybe since so many pitchers have failed in NY and go on to other teams and do well the thought process by some GMs is that someone like Igawa could be decent. 
Contreras, Vazquez, etc.

Their crazy to think so.  I can’t see Igawa being anything better than a #5 on a bad team with a 5.50 or worse ERA.  He’s just not that good despite what stuff he might possess.

I agree that Cash a/o the Tampa gang have made a ton of mistakes Beltran, Vlad, Woemack, Wright, Pavano, Men K for instance.  And he made have been smart enough to give Pena a shot though Theo fanned on him also.

George brett in his prime could not pull the royals from the gutter they are in.

You’re kidding right?  They were in the playoffs what, 5 times in 6 years in the 70’s and 80’s (usually losing to the Yankees)?  World Series in 85?  I think “gutter they are in” has mostly been since Brett has retired.

Actually, let Alex Gordon be great now.  By the time the Royals have enough players to be a contender, he’ll be overpriced, and in 4 or 5 years (if not sooner) the Yankees will probably need a third-baseman…

And he made have been smart enough to give Pena a shot though Theo fanned on him also.

He gave Pena a shot - last year.  Every other team - including Tampa - passed on him this off-season.  Pena playing this well has surprised everyone in baseball, and laying that one on Cashman is ridiculous.

Let him be great and put a hurt on Cleveland and Detroit.