“Bold prediction: The Yankees will have a manager next year”

And his name will be Jorge Posada. He knows the team, has some managerial experience (lifetime winning percentage 1.000), and it would be the easiest way to keep him on the team.

In all seriousness, you can’t rehire Torre as manager, offer him another job, any job, to keep him in the organzation. But at this point, if you rehire him you might be stuck with him till he dies.

he’s coming back.

wasn’t torre close to being let go after 2006 but was given one more year so that he could go out on his own terms?  what happened w/ that? 

this is bernie williams all over again.  MOVE ON.

he’s coming back.

At this point, I’d have to agree with that as well. That quote from Cashman is very telling.

Side note - there’s good info on MLBTR about what criteria the Elias Sports Bureau uses to determine Type A and Type B free agents. I imagine there will be a follow up post as to who they think will be in which category.  Let’s hope Eric Gagne sucking balls not only helped them lose games, but also helped them loses height in the draft when he signs with some other team this offseason.

this is bernie williams all over again.  MOVE ON.

Bernie Williams was employed by the Yankees to be play baseball. His skills deteriotated over time. They pulled the trigger a little late, but they made the right decision to let Bernie go because he was no longer good enough to play.

Joe Torre is already an old man. If he manages this team in 2008, it will likely be the same way he managed it in 2007 (and years before.)  The impulsive decision is to “move on.”  I’m glad they are doing this - they’re thinking about what is best for this team.  That’s all we can ask for, whether or not that decision ends up being to not resign Torre.  On the other hand, having someone not qualified to do the job because you are more interesting with just “moving on”, is a bad, bad thing.

Torre is good at things and bad at other things. Girardi as well. Mattingly, who knows. The same can be said about the other mentioned candidates. At least people are seemlingly thinking this one through.

—Bernie Williams was employed by the Yankees to be play baseball. His skills deteriotated over time. They pulled the trigger a little late, but they made the right decision to let Bernie go because he was no longer good enough to play.—

Joe Torre was employed by the Yankees to manage baseball.  His skills have deteriorated over time.  They are pulling the trigger too late.

As you age, you have less energy and are less mentally sharp.  Both are tools needed to be a good manager.  Furthermore, you are less likely to be able to adapt to new situations or new ideas.  Torre’s basic strategy is probably rooted in how the game was played when he played in the national league in the 60’s (guessing on the years). 

If you could clone the 1998 version of Torre and have him manage a team in say 2030, he’d probably be a terrible manager.  I’m not saying “move on” just for the sake of it.  He’s getting worse just by the nature of the game and time.

I’m not saying “move on” just for the sake of it.  He’s getting worse just by the nature of the game and time.

I disagree, although I’m more familiar with the Torre managing style of the oft-ALDS-losing Yankees of the present.

My point is only this: why not rehire Torre? Unless I’m missing something, it has to be one of the reasons:

(1) The reason they are not achieving their goal is because of the manager
(2) There’s someone else who can do a better job

For (1),  you have to challenge this idea that the Yankees are set out to win the WS every year. While that would certainly be the best thing that could happen every year, holding someone responsible for it not happening is pretty stupid. And for (2), who is better? I suppose only an argument can be made for Girardi, who has specific ties with these players and this organization. Who knows what Mattingly will be like? 

All I’m saying is that Torre is an option, and arguable the best one. You’re saying “move on”. So what am I missing? If you’re not just for “moving on”, then who is the better option and why?

His skills have deteriorated over time.

Are you saying that the reason for the Yankees early success was Torre, and now the reason for their reason (relative) failure is also Torre?  I’d put my money on the fact that it was the players, just a hunch.

I’ve waffled on the Torre issue for a while and I think I’ve concluded that they should give him one more year.

First, they’ve already tinkered with giving Torre managing limitations (the Joba Rules) and it seems that Joe did not have any trouble abiding by them.  I think this is a huge point in his favor, as management now can feel confident that they can prevent a Sturtze/Proctor situation with their young pitchers.

Second, with management in flux, this may not be a good year to tinker with the stability that Joe has brought to the team over the past 12 or so years.  I think that a lot of people have conveniently forgotten what sort of turnover the position had in the pre-Torre days. 

Finally, I think that the 2008 Yankees will look very, very similar to the team that just lost to Cleveland.  I don’t know how much value there is to shaking up that team (which played really well aside from the first 2 months) in order to bring in someone new.

Torre can ruin all the dime a dozen middle relievers he wants (and that’s precisely what Sturtze and Proctor were and are).  If anything, he is usually a bit over-cautious with Mariano.  That being the case, it also bears mentioning that the Yanks crop of young pitchers will all be starters next year - and Torre has, if anything, a quick hook with guys in the rotation.  I’ve criticized Torre with the best of them.  I especially can’t stand his need to use 5-6 pitchers in every single game.  However, I wouldn’t mind having him return in 2008 on a one year deal - perhaps with a team option for 2009.

—-Are you saying that the reason for the Yankees early success was Torre, and now the reason for their reason (relative) failure is also Torre?  I’d put my money on the fact that it was the players, just a hunch.—

No, i’m not saying that at all.

I don’t think Torre was EVER that good.  As far as i can tell, his only real skill is being a good baby sitter.  and that’s an overated skill.  Winning locker rooms create good morale, not the other way around. 

Managers are most effective when they are younger.  They are also more effective when they are early in their tenure w/ a team, not later.

Everyone talks about torre’s ability to deal w/ the egos of players…what players on this current team are headcases?  Arod?  That’s over reacting.

It’s inefficient to give Torre the 100 joba-esque rules he’d need to be successful (i.e. don’t use viz or mo in blowouts, jason giambi should play, etc).  why not just get someone who inherently knows these things.

From an “in game strategy” standpoint, name 3 things that torre is good at.

I agree with kronic, but I think Torre was fine manager back in his day. But this is the guy who basically lost a World Series game (and thus the World Series) back in 2004. It’s time to give someone else a shot… and I like I said earlier, it doesn’t matter what deal you give Torre, he’ll end up running the show because you couldn’t challenge him when you the best chance to.

—-Torre can ruin all the dime a dozen middle relievers he wants (and that’s precisely what Sturtze and Proctor were and are). —-

So you support an organization that’s intentionally exploiting it’s employees?  I know I’m overstating that, but there is something to be said that Torre does in fact abuse certain players to the detriment of their careers.  and these aren’t the richest players either…these are guys who may have to work after baseball.

And it would be one thing if this exploitation as a pure benefit to the Yankees.  Then at least it would make sense.  But there are multiple example of Torre abusing guys early enough in the season and thus makes them less valuable when they actually need them in october.

oh my god, i definitely should have proofread that.  sorry for all the grammar mistakes.

j,

Me, personally, I think Torre had a lot to do with the team winning in the 90’s.  Sure it was more the players, but I think Torre’s moves were smarter, and i think the team at the time needed more of that “calming influence”.  And while it is certainly not all Torre’s fault now that the team isn’t winning, I also think he deserves some of the blame.  His skills have definitely deteriorated. 

And one of the worst things I hear is, “it’s not Joe’s fault, it’s the players, so bring him back”.  So if the manager doesn’t matter anyway, why should the Yankees pay him twice as much as any other manager?  And have to go through the same thing next year if they don’t make the Series?  The Boss isn’t what he used to be.  You take a risk that Girardi getting off to a slow start, or not winning the WS will be fired, but I really think the next manager will get a 3-year deal , and will at least get through 2 years of it.

It’s time to move on because it is time to move on.

The problem with arguing against Torre, IMO, is that you can’t do it realistically without arguing for someone else. Who is that going to be? Girardi who arguably abused a starting rotation of young arms, or Mattingly, who didn’t think about poking his head of the dugout when Bloomquist was out by the length of the LIE?

Yes I’m laying the exaggerations on thick.  If you think Torre is costing the team games, there are certainly merits to that argument. But what I think is missing from that argument is what the shortcomings of his replacement will be, because there will almost certainly be some. What if they go with Girardi, and the result ends up being Posada, Rivera, Pettite and ARod are all wearing different uniforms next year? Or what if Girardi starts leaving Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy in for 120-140 pitches/game? Or what if Mattingly can’t handle the press conferences after a 5-10 start?

From an “in game strategy” standpoint, name 3 things that torre is good at.

1. He generally doesn’t give away outs by sacrificing.
2. He doesn’t have runners erased by stealing too much or trying too hard to use the hit and run.
3. Rarely will he abuse a starter by letting him exceed 120 pitches.

There’s no guarantee the his successor won’t be a Dusty Baker clone. Or, if it’s Mattingly, a Torre clone from a tactical standpoint, without the presence in the clubhouse and around the media.

I’m not saying that Torre should manage forever, just that he really doesn’t cost the team that many games with his in-game decision making.

kronicfatigue: Good call on the Torre situation. The Yankees no longer need a clubhouse babysitter like Torre, partly due to the fact that they don’t have players like Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, and Kenny Lofton on the team anymore. I think Torre would make a fine bench coach somewhere, but I’m really begining to question his managerial ability.

Re: #11 - Biggest in my book is Torre’s willingness to pitch his Rivera in “non-closer” situations (more than one inning, tie games, etc.)

Which reminds me of Cleveland’s situation, and why I think Eric Wedge might be an evil genius - Betancourt and Perez are better than Joe Borowski, and it’s often that you want your better pitchers in the seventh or eighth rather than the ninth.  I think Wedge knows this too.  It’s possible that two wrongs make a right here, but I think Wedge is smarter than that.  Sorry to get off topic, but, am I giving Eric Wedge too much credit here?

As you age, you have less energy and are less mentally sharp

But Joe Torre drinks Bigelow Green Tea, rich in antioxidants that promote mind and body health.

There was almost nothing done in the playoff series to make me think Eric Wedge outmanaged Ol’ Joe. Beyond that though, I just don’t see the urgency to get rid of him in favor of, say, Mattingly.

The Yankees were tied for the second most sac bunts with the Royals and White Sox. They all had 41. The Rangers led the AL with 47.

Yankees, Rangers, White Sox, Royals.

Which one of these is not like the others?

I’m sorry the Rangers had 57.

The Yankee Brass I think is going about this the right way…In the past, Stienbrenner would make changes just for the sake of making a change…Thankfully thatis no longer the case…..Until it really does make sense and there’s a logical replacement, St.Joe stays in a Pinstripe uni..Mattingly cetainly knows the game well enough, however the pinching equation will require some more time and seasoning..Or at the least a relaible and stable pitching coach…That’s why I see Eiland coming up to the big club, to begin that process…...I also think # 13 is staying, so I very well could be full of shit about all this….

I don’t see Torre so much as a babysitter, but rather someone with experience handling the media, and a great ability to do so.  I’m willing to give Torre some credit for guiding them through the storm that was the beginning of this year (ditto 2005) and righting the ship rather than imploding.  Ozzie Guillen comes to mind as a counterfactual here - as someone who watched White Sox games semi-regularly, I can vouch that that team laid down after the all-star break.

Re: #23, I think I’ll be happy with whatever comes out of this (OK, that’s not true, no LaRussa).  I think I’d have been OK before, but I will be moreso now, because they ARE going about this the right way. 

Plus the talk radio makes me giggle - “Day 2: The Yankees did nothing again today!”

And this team definitely bunts too much. We need to [shudder] be more like the Red Sox.

—Re: #11 - Biggest in my book is Torre’s willingness to pitch his Rivera in “non-closer” situations (more than one inning, tie games, etc.)—

Torre doesn’t use Mo in the situation with the highest of all leverages:  tie game on the road in extra innings.

The Yankees no longer need a clubhouse babysitter like Torre, partly due to the fact that they don’t have players like Kevin Brown, Gary Sheffield, and Kenny Lofton on the team anymore

i agree with most of your post, but i don’t agree that Kenny Lofton gets lumped in as a malcontent.

he complained about not playing, b/c he was NOT PLAYING.  when he should have been.

IMO, the Lofton situation goes as a check in the CON column for Torre, not a PRO.

Re: #27 - really? http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/ps/y2007/boxscore.jsp?gid=2007_10_05_nyamlb_clemlb_1

He does it a pretty fair amount in the regular season, as well as numerous times in the playoffs.

Didn’t Lofton complain about batting ninth when he was playing?  I remember him (Lofton) coming off really bad to me in that debate.

Bold prediction: The Yankees will have a manager next year.

well i for one am shocked

Arg - my link didn’t work - Rivera pitched a tie game on the road in extra innings in Game 2.

actually, how do you post links on this board?

i’ve tried various tags and they didn’t work.

actually, how do you post links on this board?

<a href=“URL you want to link to”>Link Text</a>

Example:

<a href=“http://www.rlyw.net”>RLYW.net</a>

gives you

RLYW.net

Don’t f these tags up, it’s worse than when you mess up italics.

Kronic,

I would hardly say that Torre or the Yankees are “exploiting” their employees to the tune of $340,000 per year and usually much more than that.  Let’s take Luis Vizcaino, for example, the most recent incarnation of Scott Proctor.  He will make somewhere in the vicinity of $2 million next year - whether it’s with the Yanks or another team.  While not A-Rod money, I highly doubt the Viz is going to become a squeegie guy in Santo Domingo when his playing days are finished.  The same goes for New Jersey’s own Ron Villone.  If my memory serves me correctly, he also made around $2 million last season and you will not be seeing him anytime soon as a cashier in your local neighborhood Quick Check.

Obviously, Torre is a bit dumb to use Vizcaino when the Yanks have a seven run lead - something he does with irritating regularity.  On the other hand, besides Tom Gordon, which of the guys that Torre “ruined” were real talents?  Even with Gordon, his woes with the Phils may have far more to do with his advanced age than high inning totals under Torre.  More often than not, Torre merely rides a hot reliever who is temporarily pitching over his head, like Villone in 2006 and Vizcaino during stretches of 2007.  And believe me, if these guys are even moderately intelligent, they will never, ever need to work another day in their lives once their baseball careers are over.  Even a journeyman like Tanyon Sturtze must have accumulated more than $1 million playing baseball.

—Arg - my link didn’t work - Rivera pitched a tie game on the road in extra innings in Game 2.—

I wouldn’t know how to look this up, but my guess is that more often than not, mo is NOT the first guy out of the pen in either the bottom of the 9th of a tied game, or to start the bottom of the 10th of a tied game.  Torre waits for the Yankees to take the lead on the road. 

anyone willing to look that up, or at least tell me how i can look that up?

<blockquote>What if they go with Girardi, and the result ends up being Posada, Rivera, Pettite and ARod are all wearing different uniforms next year? Or what if Girardi starts leaving Hughes, Chamberlain and Kennedy in for 120-140 pitches/game? Or what if Mattingly can’t handle the press conferences after a 5-10 start?<blockquote>

So, we should never get a new manager because he might not be as good as Torre?  Or as good as we *think* Torre is?  As long as we’re on the “what if’s”, what if the Yankees retain Torre, and the team wins 85 games next year?  Do we then keep him for another year because we’re not sure if the next manager would win 86?  One of your main arguments seems to be we shouldn’t change just to change; but some of your arguments for keeping Torre sure sounds like, “we *should* keep the status-quo just to keep the status-quo”.

Bold prediction: The Yankees will have a manager next year and his first name will be <u>“JOE”</u>

I was wondering what value people here actually place on the Torre “stability” factor.  That is, his ability to handle the players, pressure, media, etc. have been a pretty calming influence on an organization that wasn’t really known for that during the Steinbrenner era.  To be honest, I’ve never put much stock in that in the past until recently when I’ve heard people bring this up again.  And it strikes me as a decent point.  Before Torre, it was like a manager a year here, and (from what i heard somewhere) it was considered, to a certain extent, a place where players DIDN’T want to come because of all of the ridiculous pressure Steinbrenner put on people.  It can be argued that Torre changed that, although how much of a role he played can certainly be questioned.  If he leaves, maybe someone else doesn’t do as good a job there, and that aspect of managing the Yankees is something that’s flown under the radar?  Again, not sure I agree with this, but it’s an idea.  Thoughts?

So, we should never get a new manager because he might not be as good as Torre?

Um, yes?  We should not replace a manager with a manager that is not as good as him. Does that not make sense?

One of your main arguments seems to be we shouldn’t change just to change; but some of your arguments for keeping Torre sure sounds like, “we *should* keep the status-quo just to keep the status-quo”.

No, my argument is to consider the drawbacks of Torre’s replacement, not just the drawbacks of Torre in 2008. The conversation has been this, so far:

Torre is old and lacks energy
Torre is behind the times
Torre abuses relievers
Torre is horrible at in game management

And the conclusion is to pick one of Mattingly or Girardi (or Valentine, etc., although the field seems to have narrowed to those first two.)

I’m not saying that list isn’t accurate, although all of the points can be debated (as we’ve been doing.) All I’m saying is this: make a list for every candidate and judge it objectively. And I’m also saying that the fact that the offseason is now 10 days old and this decision has not been made yet is evidence that this is most likely happening behind close doors.

Do we all agree that the Yankees from say 1995-2007 had enough talent where they SHOULD have been in the playoff hunt almost every year?  In other words, I think that there’s one camp that’s saying “torre’s a good manager, and proof of this is his ability to get the team into the playoffs every year” while there’s another camp (of which i’m a part) that’s saying “the yankees are good enough to get into the playoffs, and Torre’s not necessarily bad enough to screw up those chances”.

The playoffs are a crap shoot, but the regular season is not.  in 2008, the Yankees will probably make a run at the playoffs.  However, since a playoff series is basically 50/50, you don’t want those little things that Torre does to make it 49/51 or 45/55 against you.  And the tiring of the arms, the poor lineup construction, the mis-use of the bullpen, etc etc….those things add up. 

I think Mike K nailed it.  Torre is “good enough” to a certain degree, but the goal should be to get the best available.  You can’t make decisions based on avoiding the worst.

Not rehiring Torre after the way the team recovered from an incredible rash of pitching injuries seems as strange to me as Girardi getting fired after the job he did in Florida.  I may hate the way he manages a bullpen and they way young hitters have MUCH quicker hooks than over-the-hill veterans but, objectively, he did a pretty good job this year over the length of the season.  Honestly, I think he’ll get consideration for manager of the year. 

Since there aren’t any great managers or bench coaches out there lining up for this job, I hope the Yankees bring Torre back and fire him if the team does poorly next year (which I don’t think will happen).  My biggest fear is that Mattingly becomes manager.  I loved him as a player but I’ve never seen anything from him that screams out “he’s going to be a great manager.”

Off-topic slightly, everyone in the media talks about how the Yankees haven’t won the series since they got A-Rod but isn’t the real candidate to replace “The Curse of Clay Bellinger” at the top of the webpage, Jason GIambi?  If I remeber correctly, the last time the Yankees went to the World Series was right before the signed the roider ...

If anyone is interested in non-Torre, here’s something.

1st round order for the 08 MLB Draft (c/o MLBTR)-
Picks 1-15 don’t change despite FA signings:
1. Devil Rays
2. Pirates
3. Royals
4. Orioles
5. Giants
6. Marlins
7. Reds
8. White Sox
9. Nationals
10. Astros
11. Rangers
12. Athletics
13. Cardinals
14. Twins
15. Dodgers
Picks 15-30 can be lost through Type A FA signings:
16. Brewers
17. Blue Jays
18. Braves
19. Cubs
20. Mariners
21. Tigers
22. Mets
23. Padres
24. Phillies
25. Rockies
26. Diamondbacks
27. Angels
28. Yankees
29. Indians
30. Red Sox

If the Yankees did not pick up Abreu’s option, he would almost certainly get picked up by someone. The Mets are in the market for an OF, and the Tigers for an LF and and LH bat.

Any chance not signing Abreu is worth the risk of (1) Going with Austin Jackson or Shelley Duncan in RF and (2) hoping he goes to one of those 15-30 teams and we end up with a 2 1st round draft picks next year?

Do we all agree that the Yankees from say 1995-2007 had enough talent where they SHOULD have been in the playoff hunt almost every year?

At the start of the season yes. But there were certainly points in 2005 and 2007 were the playoffs were not inevitable.

At the start of the season yes. But there were certainly points in 2005 and 2007 were the playoffs were not inevitable.

ok, but if you are giving Torre the credit for the turn-around, doesn’t he deserve the blame for the team being in that position to begin with?

i don’t think it’s obvious either way if Torre should be back, but it also seems like recent Torre teams have shown the tendency to start slowly.  why is that?  it can’t all be injuries.

As per the NY Post:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/10182007/sports/yankees/torre_lands_in_tampa.htm

Torre drives us all nuts with his bullpen usage and over-the-top loyalty to his favorite players, but seeing how there’s really no better options out there, a two year deal with a club option for a third would be just dandy. Not retaining Joe Torre is the easiest thing to do. Knowing for sure Joe Girardi and Don Mattingly can get the same amount of success out of this roster of players is a bit more complicated.

Cutting Abreu loose just to get a draft pick would be foolish, especially as the Yanks can always draft top level talent with signability issues in the later rounds.  Moreover, Austin Jackson hasn’t spent any significant period of time above high A the minors.  He needs to spend next season in Trenton.  If he rakes over there, the Yanks can consider him for RF in 2009 when Abreu will once again be a free agent if the Yanks pick up his option.

By the way, Rab01, Giambi signed with the Yanks before 2002 and played sparingly in the 2003 World Series.  His two HR against Pedro in Game 7 of the ALCS were also instrumental.

The longer this goes on, the more I think that someone (be it Cashman, George, or the Lesser Steinbrenners) are trying to sell the idea of bringing Torre back for one more year, with the mutual understanding that he will announce his retirement at the end of 2008 and hand the reins over to Mattingly.

It’d be a PR win for ownership, who’d be seen as “letting Joe leave on his own terms.”  I don’t know whether it’d actually be good for the team or not.

Um, yes?  We should not replace a manager with a manager that is not as good as him. Does that not make sense?

Sure.  And if it comes down to Torre or Stump Merril, you’re right, I’ll take Torre.  You could also make an argument - and a very strong one at the time - that letting Showalter go and hiring Torre for 1996 was replacing a good manager with one not as good.  Turned out pretty well; whether that was because Torre IS/WAS a better manager and didn’t have the teams to prove it, or the Yankees were just that good, I don’t know. 

I am pretty sure that Girardi/Mattingly will not have a problem with the first item on your list (old/lacks energy).  Will they be better in-game managers, use the bullpen better, etc?  I don’t know, but I’m willing to find out, because we won’t really know for sure how ANY manager - even experienced ones - will do specifically with the expected Yankees team, until they do it.

And I’m also saying that the fact that the offseason is now 10 days old and this decision has not been made yet is evidence that this is most likely happening behind close doors

We can certainly hope that is what they are doing.

IE—oops, I forgot about (blocked) the loss to the Marlins.

Yup:
You’re right. Lofton’s grievances were entirely legitimate. I should have thrown somebody else on there, maybe Ruben Sierra during his first tour of duty.