I’ve been hoping for several years now that Torre would find and take an opportunity to go out on his own terms.  He’s a 67 year old cancer survivor with aging and ill siblings who I’m sure he’d like to spend more time with while he and they still have the chance.  He’s accomplished just about everything he ever could have hoped to in baseball, and he’s got a retired number in Monument Park and a plaque in Cooperstown waiting.  All his faults and missteps combined don’t come close to outweighing what he has meant to the franchise for over a decade.  That’s not to say that he’s entitled to keep the job for as long as he wants it, but he does deserve a better exit than the one he seems to be headed for.  Of course, that’s as much on the press as it is on the organization, but I guess it’s too much to expect that his class and dignity would be repaid in kind.

As for the candidates to replace him: Girardi got fired for a reason—he got a lot out of his team in Florida, but he turned out to be quite a hot-head.  Valentine seems to have mellowed a bit, but how can you really tell based on a few satellite hookup interviews from Japan?  Mattingly?  Who knows what kind of manager he’d be?  I suspect that he’d handle the press reasonably well and have the respect of the veteran players, but we really have no idea how he’d do tactically.  LaRussa would be an unmitigated disaster in New York, IMO.  And while some might like the idea of him bringing Duncan along, remember that he’s also liable to bring along a utility infielder and backup catcher who won’t combine to hit above the Mendoza line.

If we get rid of Guidry, which I think will happen, I would like to see Dave Eiland get a shot at either pitching coach, or bullpen coach if you wanna make Kerrigan the pitching coach. He has worked with the Young guys while they were in the minors and that should help to develop them in the majors.

I think promoting from within is always a good practice when it comes to the coaches.

FWIW, the linked article makes it sound like Kerrigan is gone (of his own volition).

I second Dave Eiland for pitching coach. Not that there’s anything necessarily wrong with Guidry, but a lot of these young guys pitched their best baseball once they came into contact with Dave Eiland and I think there is something to it.

I second SG’s order of preference on the manager situation, but it seems all but certain to be Mattingly’s job.

Girardi got fired for a reason—he got a lot out of his team in Florida, but he turned out to be quite a hot-head.

True, but a couple of things.

1) He got into it with Jeff Loria, who I think is a scumbag. 
2) After Torre’s laid-back style, a hot-head may be just what the team needs

but it seems all but certain to be Mattingly’s job.

Yeah, that’s what it looks like to me also.

Actually, I think Girardi has a better shot for right now.  I think Cashman will lobby for Girardi, and I think he will also be able to (correctly) argue that Mattingly could use a little more experience as the bench-coach first.  Also, as noted, replacing Torre will be tough.  Replacing the person who replaces Torre, easier.  Steinbrenner would probably be more than willing to let Girardi take the heat if the Yankees lose (so Mattingly can ride in on a white horse).  If the Yankees win under Girardi, so much the better.

BTW, I think one of the reasons the Yankees are holding off on announcing anything with Torre is they want to figure out what to do with him.  E.g., the Yankees often “reassign” people to other roles in the organization.  That could allow them to give Torre that graceful exit (to become Director of the Spring Training Bowling League, or whatever).

From a sentimental standpoint, I don’t want to see Torre let go.  That instinct is tempered somewhat, however, by the recognition that he was almost fired last year but was given what many understood to be “one more year” to get the team deep into the playoffs.  It’s also tempered by the fact that, for a manager in the major leagues, being fired is not exactly a mark of shame.  Virtually all managers eventually get fired.  It is often not even a direct slam by the ownership against the existing manager, just an attempt to change the dynamics of the team and try something new.  In fact, that’s what seems to be going on here.  I think the powers that be genuinely regard Torre as a very good and capable manager, but they think the time has come to try something new.

I would say this, however, in regard to the idea that the players shouldn’t be allowed to control Joe Torre’s fate as a manager:  It is entirely possible that the decision to let Torre go could start a chain reaction that causes the team to lose not only Torre, but also Rivera, Posada, Pettitte, and even ARod.  I’m not saying such as mass exodus is probable, but it’s certainly enough of a risk to warrant a significant show of respect for the players’ opinions.

Would Torre want another position in the organization?  He certainly doesn’t need the ducats after making $7 million last season.  As for his prospective replacement, if Cashman has his way, Girardi will most likely be hired.  If not, Mattingly will be the manager.  The Tampa goons who would lobby for a guy like La Russa no longer have the pull they once had - which is obviously a good thing.

Torre is not being fired.

like you said, he was allowed to manage to the end of his contract even though there was a strong case for him to be fired last year.  a contract that is probably more than double the average salary for major league managers.

he no longer has a contract.

the organization has every right to go in a different direction after 7 years without a championship.

i guess i just don’t understand this notion coming from various corners of yankee fandom that Torre is being mistreated.  that implies that Torre should be allowed to keep his job for as long as he wants it.

He got into it with Jeff Loria, who I think is a scumbag.

I agree, but I seem to recall him getting into it with a few other people as well.  He’s no Gibbons, but he seems to have some anger management issues.

i guess i just don’t understand this notion coming from various corners of yankee fandom that Torre is being mistreated.  that implies that Torre should be allowed to keep his job for as long as he wants it.

I would separate the question of how he’s being treated from the question of whether he should get a new contract to manage the team.  As I said, I don’t think he’s entitled to keep the job for as long as he wants it.  But I would have preferred to skip the Steinbrenner ultimatum and the interminable death watch.  If a few tongues could have been held, Torre would have had the opportunity to say that he’d decided not to come back on his own, and he could have done so with at least a modicum of credibility.  I think the organization owed him that, but I certainly don’t think they owe him manager-for-life status.

But I would have preferred to skip the Steinbrenner ultimatum and the interminable death watch.

i agree, but i think Steinbrenner is without all of his faculties.  i think a phone call got through to him that shouldn’t have and he made the statement.

this was not the way the organization would have handled it had that phone call not gotten through.

it will probably the last time we hear an edict from “King George”.

A couple of comments on the “ultimatum.”  First, it was not in the form of a prepared statement, but came out in an interview with George Steinbrenner.  George, it must be noted, may not be in total command of his own thoughts and words, let alone of the organization.

Second, it’s already clear that the ultimatum, if there was one, was bogus.  If it were real, then Torre would already be gone.  Instead, his son has made it clear no decision has been made and the powers that be are evidently conferencing over this and other matters in Tampa.  Although media reports suggest there is a strong sentiment within the boardroom in favor of letting Torre go, losing the ALDS did not ipso facto mean that Torre was gone.

I also think the passage of these extra days helps Torre’s cause.  The public is not exactly agitating for Joe’s dismissal.  Nobody seems to blame him, in particular, for the loss in the ALDS, and almost everyone seems to agree that, while imperfect, Torre has great number of strengths as a manager.  Perhaps coller heads will prevail.  Also, the public comments of Rivera, Clemens, et al in support of keeping Torre could (and arguably should) cause the Tampa people to soften their views. 

One thing they could do is announce that Torre will be retained for the 2008 season and then retire, with Mattingly to take over in 2009.  Everyone saves face.

“He’s no Gibbons, but he seems to have some anger management issues.”

Where does this come from, MC?  As someone who agrees with SG that Girardi should be the FA’s choice, I’m really curious.

In a way, it’s interesting how the press has reacted to Chien Ming Wang’s complete failure in the ALDS.  He almost single-handedly cost the Yanks the series (whereas if he had pitched to his capabilities, the Yanks might have won 3-1 instead) and, while his shortcomings have certainly been discussed, there is none of the personalized resentment that was directed at A-Rod last season - even though he had much less of a hand in the Yanks’ loss to Detroit.  Is this because he makes the ML minimum?  Is it because Wang is completely unassuming?  If New York is supposed to be a near impossible place to play, with such an unforgiving press and fan base, that certainly doesn’t seem to be the case with Wang.

Let me begin by stating openly that I’ve always been a Torre fan and I think he actually did his best work in 2005 and this year when the team got off to bad starts due to injuries. While there’s no manager who can win without talent, I think a different manager with a different style might not have made the playoffs in those 2 years.

I dont completely subscribe to the idea that his bullpen management his so horrid, questionable at times yes, horrible no. In the first half of his tenure, he had Stanton, Nelson, Mendoza, and of course Mo and for 1 yr Wetteland. He never overused any of them. It seems more like in recent years, he had fewer “go-to” guys that could get things done in the bullpen and so perhaps relied more heavily on fewer he came to trust. I also think that because of the excellent relationship he had with Mel Stottlemyre who was a high calibre rep pitching coach, Mel could certainly have influenced Torre if he thought certain pitchers were being overused. But to our knowledge there was never any conflict on bullpen usage between them.

Anyway, perhaps the best reason to make a change is if someone with less of a bond to the players has to make tough decisions on players, such as moving Jeter or Posada to a different position in the next year or two. I think Torre would have a hard time doing that.

As a management style, I prefer the Torre model vs say the Valentine model.

To my knowledge there’s no compelling information that one style is better than the other. Ralph Houk and Bob Lemon are more in Torre’s mold than in say Billy Martin’s mold who was an excellent tactician and head case. The reason that all of them won was because they had the talent.

I am old enough to remember all of Casey Stengel’s teams. Casey also won with the Yankees great talent but like everyone else, couldnt win with inferior talent elsewhere.

The real factor in favor of retaining Torre in my opinion is in his value to the brand. He’s the face of the franchise and the best public relations representative the Yankees could possibly have. I dont think any of the rumored names can step in and do that.

As the sons take over, from George, I think we will see more dollars and cents driven decisions and less obsession over big splashes for the sake of the back pages. Maybe they wont even have the same passion for winning that George did/does and wouldnt spend so lavishly either. So If Torre comes back, I think it will because of his value to the bottom line and because at the end of the day, he is still an excellent manager not without some faults like any other manager.

Is this because he makes the ML minimum?

yes.

It seems more like in recent years, he had fewer “go-to” guys that could get things done in the bullpen and so perhaps relied more heavily on fewer he came to trust.

the problem is that he relies on these same guys when there is simply no need to.  here are some situations Vizcaino was used in this year after complaining of a sore shoulder:

8/1 - ahead 6
8/3 - ahead 5
8/4 - ahead 9
8/11 - ahead 8
8/14 - down 12
8/16 - down 5
8/21 - down 13
9/1 - ahead 6
9/4 - ahead 10

no one is making this up, it’s right there in the game logs.  this is supposed to be your #2 setup guy and he is being used like a mop up guy.  there are plenty of similar incidents for Scott Proctor.

i am ok with it if Torre comes back, and ok if he leaves.  but let’s not pretend that he’s not a bad bullpen manager.

a contract that is probably more than double the average salary for major league managers

I believe it’s even more than that. I think Piniella is the next highest paid, at $3.5M/year.

Perhaps cooler heads will prevail.

I think that is the best we can hope for. As yup mentioned, it’s a better headline to describe Torre as getting fired - but in fact, he’s just completed his contract and the real debate is whether or not they will bring him back (George’s quote even say “if…, I don’t think we will have him back,” and not “if.. he’s fired!”  Cooler heads prevailing is also not the same thing as having Torre back. They need to figure out what manager can best serve this team, whose dynamic has basically changed overnight.  Jeter, Posada, Rivera and Pettite, IMO, should no longer be the absolute focus.  Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy, Wang, Cano, Betemit and eventually guys like Cox, Jackson, Tabata, Brackman are a big part (perhaps the biggest part) of whether or not this team has can be an elite team in the AL (instead of just a very good one.)  To that end, I don’t know if Torre best serves the organizations interests.  To me, Cashman is well aware of Joe’s weaknesses and what he can control (I’m sure the Joba rules came down to give Torre explicit guidance on how not go blow his arm out with 2.5 months left in the season.)  I honestly don’t know enough about Girardi to know whether or not he is right guy for this job, but you have to value the 2006 job in Florida, where he basically took a team of very talented yet very green players and kept them in it until the end. 

And while I’m sure Jeter, Mo et al want Torre back, I’m not completely sure that those statements aren’t just ways of saying that Torre should be brushed aside because of the loss - it’s their way of saying “don’t blame Joe and not bring him back because we lost, blame us,” although Mo’s comment are a little bit of a different flavor - he basically really wants to play for Joe. The point is, I can’t imagine that if Girardi was the manager in 2008 that he wouldn’t be respected by the players, and I also can’t imagine that he would come in, guns blazing, as a method of motivating the veterans guys on the club.  Let’s not forget, Girardi played under Torre and with these guys, and has now been in the booth for a year and probably around players for 100 games or so.  You’ve also got to think that Girardi turned down the Baltimore job to take the YES job because he knew this opportunity would arise and he’s eager to take the job, which is worth factoring into what we can expect from him.

In case you can’t tell, I’m not into Don Mattingly as an option right now, mainly because, to me, there’s no proof that he’d be a good manager.  He’s got all the respect in the world from the players, but what of his managerial skills? If all he’s done is learn from Torre, why shouldn’t we just expect the same.  If anything, I think going with Girardi gives Mattingly another year as bench coach to sit and watch a guy with a different style do things, and keep him out of making decisions on Hughes, Chamberlain, and Kennedy when they are in that important 100-150 IP jump (for Hughes and Chamberlain at least.)

Another factor complicating this saga is that if Girardi is named manager, what happens to Mattingly? Would he want to return as bench coach? Would Girardi want him as bc? My impression of the ideal manager/bc is either wise old coach with young manager or wise old manager with manager-in-training as a bc. Is the front office ready for the PR storm that would follow letting both Torre and Mattingly go? Maybe Guidry too. That’s a lot of popular personalities, even though it may be the best long term approach to take. Either way, I don’t see this being resolved quickly, unless Joe just decides he’s had enough and doesn’t want to come back.

there are plenty of similar incidents for Scott Proctor

And Bruney when he was pitching well last year.
And Scott Proctor basically all of last year.
And Paul Quantrill.
And Tanyon Sturtze when he was pitching well.
And Tom Gordon.
And ... (the list really goes on forever..)

And this also doesn’t mention the guys that rot in the bullpen in these low leverage situations, when they can be used to knock the rust off or get some experience. You can argue that when Torre makes the wrong call, it’s actually affecting the effectiveness of 2, not 1, relief pitcher. When you have a weak bullpen to start with, this is not good.

Torre obviously wants to return.  He has already said as much.  In the end, why wouldn’t he want to come back next year?  The money is great, the Yanks are stocked with talent and he’s nearly guaranteed a spot in the playoffs unless A-Rod suddenly decides to opt out and sign with Anaheim or Boston.

i will never forgive Torre for using Gordon in the 9th inning of a 19-8 game in game 3 of the 2004 ALCS when they had 4 games in 4 days scheduled after that game.

now, no one would have expected to play 4 more games at that point, but seriously, why use your only other good reliever with a 9 run lead?  mind-boggling.

One further question about Girardi: wasn’t there an issue with his handling of one or more of Florida’s young pitchers in 2006? Didn’t he send someone out to pitch towards the end of the season that year who may have been showing signs of needing to be shut down and subsequently developed a serious arm injury? I can’t recall the circumstances at the moment, but with Hughes, Joba, Kennedy et al any track record of handling young pitchers would seem significant.

Would Girardi want him as bc?

Well, honestly, Girardi as manager doesn’t fit into the scheme of the coaching staff they have now.  Mattingly, Bowa, Pena, Guidry and even Kerrigan are all older than Girardi. Bowa, Pena and Kerrigan have managerial experience (although Kerrigan’s isn’t much to speak of). How a younger Girardi with a presumably the antithetical style of Joe Torre fits in, I don’t know, but you’ve got to at least think it may cause some waves.

And perhaps that is what they are talking about down in Tampa? Seems logical to think there are a lot of moving parts here.  Maybe they’re rethinking the entire coaching staff? Wasn’t Pena rumored to be a possible for the DC job?  You’ve got to think if there are some other managerial openings this winter, that Bowa would (and should) be a candidate, and would probably entertain offers if their was essentially a ‘regime change’ for the Yankees.

Now, I’m not sure if Bowa and Pena are Cashmans ‘guys’, but they started out before the 06 season, and we saw Cashman make all those moves with the scouting personnel last offseason. Perhaps he’s in the room with the Tampa people lobbying for his ideal coaching staff? Who knows.

Man my spelling his horrible, oh well.

Any chance Al Leiter gets into the mix here? I don’t think I’d mind that at all.

If a few tongues could have been held, Torre would have had the opportunity to say that he’d decided not to come back on his own, and he could have done so with at least a modicum of credibility.

Exactly. I’m not so much against letting Torre go as I am against not publicly taking a crap on him.  Which is not only wrong but also feeds the Brobnx Zoo media narrative.  It was probably too much to expect that this would be handled with dignity.

I’ve been hoping for several years now that Torre would find and take an opportunity to go out on his own terms.  He’s a 67 year old cancer survivor with aging and ill siblings who I’m sure he’d like to spend more time with while he and they still have the chance.  He’s accomplished just about everything he ever could have hoped to in baseball, and he’s got a retired number in Monument Park and a plaque in Cooperstown waiting.  All his faults and missteps combined don’t come close to outweighing what he has meant to the franchise for over a decade.  That’s not to say that he’s entitled to keep the job for as long as he wants it, but he does deserve a better exit than the one he seems to be headed for.  Of course, that’s as much on the press as it is on the organization, but I guess it’s too much to expect that his class and dignity would be repaid in kind.

MC: I’ve been saying this to my wife for a couple of years now. It seems to me that one of the hardest things to do for a sports “star” is to go out on one’s own terms. Maybe it’s the money (although I can’t believe Torre doesn’t have plenty, along with plenty of opportunities to make money outside of baseball, trading off of his celebrity within baseball), or maybe it’s simply the fear of stopping/missing the work and the relationships/comaraderie that go with the work. I don’t know.

Torre is not being fired.

i guess i just don’t understand this notion coming from various corners of yankee fandom that Torre is being mistreated.  that implies that Torre should be allowed to keep his job for as long as he wants it.

yup: I believe Torre’s contract runs through the end of the month, so he could be fired, or he could be just NOT rehired. Is he being mistreated? Being let go in a civilized manner is not mistreatment. OTOH, Steinbrenner’s comments after Game 2 were totally unnecessary and not very productive, and they constitute mistreatment in my view. Then again, everything is relative—if you experienced the early years of King George’s reign, this is nothing.

yup, #18 is so on point that i’m cutting and pasting and emailing it to friends.  Well done.

yup, #18 is so on point that i’m cutting and pasting and emailing it to friends.  Well done.

Yes, bravo!

Here’s my take on Torre (if any care).  When the Yankees first got him - like most - I was saying, “Joe who?  They fired Showalter for this guy?” (note: I know technically Buck wasn’t fired, but sure felt like it at the time).  By the end of ‘96 it was, “This Torre is pretty good”.  Through the rest of the decade, and probably through 2001, I seriously thought Torre was one of the best managers in all of baseball.  I would constantly defend him to friends and family who weren’t Yankee fans; he’s not best with the bullpen, but still seems to push the right buttons, intuitively makes good choices with the lineup and pinch-hitting, laid-back attitude is perfect, etc.

Somewhere around 2002/2003, I think I started respecting him - as a manager - a little less.  Seemed that he was making more and more odd moves, and they didn’t work as well.  Each year it has deteriorated further (wait, didn’t Gordon pitch yesterday, and the day before?).  After 2004 I kinda wanted him to retire; not so much that I didn’t think he could still manage, but I REALLY that Randolph would be a good manager, and was afraid some other team would get him.

But after the 2005 season, I thought it was his time to go.  Since then, it has progressively gotten worse.  Seems to me his lineups have gotten worse, his insistence on playing small-ball has cost games, and the bullpen management…

Really, it is time for him to retire.  It would certainly have been nicer if he could have retired with a WS, or maybe announced mid-year this was his last year.  But all Torre “deserves” at this point - is “Joe Torre Day” next August.  And, if he wants, a chance to continue in the organization with another position.  Okay, long post over.

“Any chance Al Leiter gets into the mix here? I don’t think I’d mind that at all.”

J, listening to Leiter in the booth makes me think he’d make a great coach.  I hope someone in the brass is thinking this.  Listening to Girardi, who I think (as stated above) is the best of these candidates, not as much—he seems to really like small ball, always defending Jeter bunting, etc.

Bill James Guide to Managers, via NoMaas:

All managers, as a group are most effective in their early years on the job.  I did a study of 103 managers who managed at least 600 major league games, a group basically including all twentieth-century managers who had significant careers and are now retired. The study documented something which is apparent if you just look at the records. A huge percentage of managers have their best seasons a) when they first get a chance to manage, and b) in their first years on the job.

The older a manager is, the more likely he is to fight those changes. Older managers are trying to play the game the way it was played thirty years ago, usually without realizing it. 

Interesting take, although I think we can all agree that stupid managers look like geniuses with great teams and vice versa.

I’ve heard Girardi talk about small ball a number of times on YES - but the one difference, I think, is that he was usually talking about trying to put pressure on the opposition as opposed to trying to scratch a run out here or there. I think before game one he was talking about the potential usefulness of bunting on Sabathia so as to make the big man have to get off the mound, field his position, and potentially wear down. Not that it mattered ultimately, but the point was clear. “Small ball” under Torre has often felt as if utilized for the sake of proving it can be done by a powerful lineup, etc. Also remember another instance in a 9th inning where Girardi pointed out that a squeeze, if laid down right, would be unstoppable and would win the game - though I don’t remember the particular game or outcome.

Fausto Carmona and Chien Ming Wang certainly made Eric Wedge look rather sharp last week.

Girardi was a big Miguel Cairo fan as well..

yup, #18 is so on point that i’m cutting and pasting and emailing it to friends.  Well done.

Yes, bravo!

I think this is going just a bit too far.  Obviously, there’s a real issue here with Torre’s reliever usage, but check yup’s dates again.  The 8/11, 8/21 and 9/1 appearances came after 6, 4 and 9 days off respectively.  And at that point in the season, Vizcaino was saying that he was completely pain free and he was asking for the ball.  He and the team needed to find out if he was going to be able to pitch effectively again, and you can make a pretty good argument for using low leverage situations to get that information.  IMO, throwing him into high leverage situations coming off of injury, ineffectiveness, and long layoffs would have been just as deserving of criticism.

You know, I just realized that yup may not have listed all of Viz’s appearances during that stretch.  I may have to retract my previous post after I check the game logs.  Unless someone has already corrected me, that is.

Yeah, my bad.  The 8/14, 9/1 and 9/4 (at least) games are inexplicable.

It’s one thing to be a Miguel Cairo fan when there are no real bench options available (which was the case for years with the Yanks).  Now that Wilson Betemit and Shelley Duncan are in tow, I doubt anyone would look to add Miggy to the team.

Wonder if Mike and Mad Dog who are reflexively supporting Torre have a clue what #18 pointed out

I agree completely with your order of preference, SG (if Torre goes).  I’ll push it out further by including Torre in the mix: Girardi, Torre, Valentine, Mattingly, LaRussa.  And Dave Eiland for pitching coach.

Even Girardi could turn out to be worse, you know.  That’s the problem: Torre, for all his faults (mainly bullpen), is still better than many.  I fear the possible replacement.

Agreed, btw, that his use of Viz while Viz was complaining of a sore shoulder was odd.  However, Viz was asked about it and started saying he was feeling fine and wanted the ball, so I’m not really sure what the heck was going on there.  I’m not convinced Vizcaino is really any good - notwithstanding being nearly unhittable for a couple of months, or being decent in the NL West.  The results of Viz’s late-season appearances, of course, were awful, and one could argue that Torre should have realized that what Viz was saying and what Viz was doing did not match up.  Torre did stay away from him in the ALDS as much as he could.  By the time he lost game 2, the Yanks had gone threw Joba and Mo for a combined 3 2/3 innings, if I recall correctly.  One can also quibble with his decision to not put Villone on the roster at first, but seriously, we’re talking about Ron Villone here.

About Girardi: he was blame for mishandling his pitchers AFTER they got hurt, no one thought he was abusing them at the time. None of them threw ridiculous amount of innings. It was more likely bad luck than bad managing that send the kids to the DL.

And smallball makes sense as a “surprise” play. It’s best to be unpredictable against your oppoent.

The small ball stuff doesn’t bother me that much.  I just don’t feel like Joe resorts to it THAT often, but maybe I’m wrong.  More troubling to me is Torre’s bullpen management and reluctance to use young players.  Although for a guy who’s supposedly not good at developing young players, we’ve seen the development of Nick Johnson, Soriano, Cano, Melky, Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain, Kennedy…  I mean, who are the young players who Joe hasn’t used who’ve gone on to play great somewhere else?  Eh.

I think the best argument against Joe returning at this point is the stuff j posted from Bill James.  It’s strange how it describes what I feel has been happening with Joe, without being able to put my finger on it, so accurately.

No to Girardi, he could not get along with the GM and owner in Florida, and he is a control freak.

No to LaRussa, he is always battling the one newspaper in St. Louis, he could not handle the media pressure in New York. He is also somewhat of a control freak.

Mattingly, maybe, with an older, experienced, bench coach.

Valentine is a liar, players wind up disliking him intensely, a very bad choice.

I would prefer to talk Tom Kelly out of retirement. Can he handle New York and the media? Better’n LaRussa for sure.

One further question about Girardi: wasn’t there an issue with his handling of one or more of Florida’s young pitchers in 2006?

Girardi brought Josh Johnson back to continue pitching a game he started after a long rain delay.  Johnson got hurt soon thereafter (not sure exactly when), required TJ surgery, and Girardi was called into question for it.

I’ve heard Girardi talk about small ball a number of times on YES…

Not sure how seriously you can take some of that talk.  It’s a concern, but sometimes announcers are just trying not to second-guess the manager publicly.

I think Girardi would be a good choice.  Most importantly, he’s played the game on the highest level as a catcher, but he also seems like a very intelligent, well-educated guy who can learn and be open to new tactics and strategies.

Great comments regarding Joe Torre! I have always admired Torre as a standup guy, well respected by his peers, but tactically inferior to many of the better in-game managers in MLB.
King George’s statement after Game 2 was regrettable and was not something that Joe Torre deserved.
“Mike K” summed up my feelings about Torre! I,too, was hoping that Joe Torre would retire after this season and ride into the sunset without all the negative publicity that has surfaced with the Organization’s failure to win a World Championship for the 7th straight year.
(Honestly, some fans and many sportwriters think these championships are a Yankee birth right - check the number of “dynasties” since the advent of ALDS and ALCS formats!) Joe Torre has already solidified his legacy as one of the “great” managers in Yankee history. He has nothing else to prove and can likely find an assignment in the Yankee organization (or in MLB) with a comfortable paycheck and far less scrutiny.

In my opinion, a change in manager is definitely needed. I have gotten a sense that the yankee veterans like Jeter, Posada, ARod, even Mo, have become too comfortable with Torre. They seem to be comfortable with mediocre, uninspired performances, knowing the their manager will protect them and deflect any harsh media criticism.

Dave Eiland would be a logical choice as pitching coach since the bulk of their key pitching staff will likely be the young arms that Eiland has molded in the past two seasons.

Leo Mazzone was fired by the Orioles. Any thoughts about him as a pitching coach?

I can’t stand this. Can’t watch anymore! Why does the best offense in baseball score only 3 runs against Sabbathia in 5 while the Sox are beating up on him!! Let’s stop making excuses for our offense not being able to hit ‘great’ pitching!!!

Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that Sabathia knew that his team as more than likely to score more runs on the yankees pitching, which allowed him to take more chances and have a greater margin for error?  Against Beckett, he has very little margin for error, and got shelled. I’m probably just talking out of my ass, but I was just thinking about that.

Sabathia sucked in Game 1 against the Yanks also but Posada struck out after being ahead 3-0 and Matsui poped out on a 2-0 count. He had nothing that game. But we couldn’t capitalize.

Meanwhile the Sox are going to win it all easily. What a season.

i have a game from last year on my computer. it’s randy johnson vs josh beckett during that 5 game sweep in august. beckett walked nine yankees. it really is amazing how much better beckett is in
‘07 as opposed to ‘06. he looked completely deflated last year. now he has somehow managed to figure out how to throw all his pitches for strikes and is boston’s horse. it’s frustrating to a yankees fan, but if anything, ‘06 was the abberation. this guy does not have a 5.00 ERA when he’s right, and boston could very well ride him to a World Series title. i’m tempted to get angry at cleveland for playing like crap, but they may be up against a very, very tough team at this point.

kudos to joe buck for making fun of frank caliendo. the fox broadcast seems really awesome right now.

Also CC is basically a left-handed Daniel Cabrera right now.

just thought i’d throw that in there.

I suppose 19 game winners just don’t cut it anymore.

Boy does it suck when the Yankees aren’t in the playoffs. If they had made it, I think that they would’ve given the Sox a good series. Now we have to watch the Sawx sweep the Indians. Oh, Chien Ming Wang, where was thou heavy sinker?

Oh, Chien Ming Wang, where was thou heavy sinker?

Anyone read the Gammons article about the Yankees looking into Santana. MLBTR has the highlights - Wang/Cano/+ for Santana.  Too high for me if that is in fact true (Gammons and Olney are really the only ESPN guys with any credibility in my book.)

Wang/Melky might be a starting point I’d be willing to listen to. But then again, I don’t know.

Wang/Cano for Santana reminds me of the days when the Yankees would talk trade and teams would make outlandish proposals as if to say they weren’t serious about trading with the Yankees.  (In ‘98 the Mariners wanted Pettitte and Mo and prospects for Randy Johnson.) 

That said, I’d base a package around Wang/prospects for Santana in a heartbeat, provided the Twins allowed a negotiating window to get Santana to sign an extension. (I’d try my best to keep Cano out of it; I feel like he’s going to be a holy terror to AL pitchers for the next 10 years.)

About Santana: every team wants him, it’s hard to imagine Ca$hman can make a deal that he could live with considering the Twins hold all the cards here.

A lot of teams want him but know that he’s a 1-year rental and they won’t be able to cough up enough salary to keep him 1 year from now.  That might keep the asking price down.

Actually, the Twins hold none of the cards.  If they don’t trade Santana, he leaves and they get two draft picks, which is nice, but if the guys the Twins want to draft happen to be Boras clients, they won’t even get them.  The Yanks would be insane to trade Cano, who is not only a fantastic hitter, he’s also one of the top five fielding 2B in baseball - and he’ll only be 25 next season.

I think I’d like to see Girardi be the next manager, but if we don’t go with an in-house option, what about Jim Tracy?

I hope to see Torre get one more year. A chance to reap the benefits of a fresh pitching staff, receive some appreciation at the All-Star Game… let him bow out along with Yankee Stadium and two eras can come to a close in a very tidy fashion.

Frog- a lot of teams would want him as a rental anyway, and the rest can afford to sign him to a good contract.

IE- when basically every team is going to make you an offer on a guy, you’re holding at least some of the cards if not all of them.

When every team makes you an offer, you take the best one but that doesn’t mean you hold all the cards?  After all, Texas held all the cards with Eric Gagne and basically received a 5th OF, a prospect whose ceiling is as a league average pitcher and a talented 17 year old, but someone who is hardly a lock to play in the majors.  Obviously, Santana is more of a prize than Gagne, but if the Twins feel they MUST make a deal, they’ll get decent players, maybe even very good players but are nonetheless dealing from a position of weakness.  Under those circumstances, Cashman would be crazy to deal a young talent like Cano.

By the way, Austin Jackson is starting to heat up in the Hawaii Winter League (2-4 last night with a single, triple and sac. fly), which is a pitchers league.  The Yanks should pick up Abreu’s option for 2008 and then insert Jackson into left or right field in 2009.  He’s a CF right now, so he ought to be able to play either corner.  If the Yanks want to include Melky in a deal for Santana he can take over center as well.

right team, wrong player.

the Rangers got a pretty hefty return for Mark Teixeira.

Gagne was only going to give you 20 innings down the stretch before hitting free agency where he may or may not be a Type A.

Teixeira is closer to the class of player that Santana is.  and right now, he is a rental for Atlanta.  they have a year to hope he takes an extension.

i would NOT trade Cano.  but Wang + more has to be on the table.

The problem with trading Wang to Minnesota (from their perspective) is that he’s a pitcher who thrives on grass.  On turf, he is more likely to be ground-ball singled to death.  Also, Wang will be eligible for arbitration in 2009.  The Twins would much prefer someone like Hughes or Joba, who they can control for a longer period of time and who whose propensity to strike out batters will lead them to be successful regardless of the surface they play on.

In any event, if Minnesota would consider Wang+Melky+Kennedy, or, better yet, Wang+Melky+Horne+Clippard/Marquez that would be ideal.

the twins are moving to grass after this season though.  i think it’s after this season.  if it’s 2 years, you make a good point.

however, changing shortstops would off-set the move to turf some.  SG could probably do a quick and dirty ERA calc for Jeter vs. Bartlett like he did for Everett/Clemens.  i don’t know where to find out how many plays to the SS zone that Wang had.

to your point, i think wang is arb-elegible this year, no?  he should be a super two.  but you are correct, they would definitely ask for Hughes or Joba, so i don’t think it will happen.

Hey guys - just a friendly reminder. Back in June the Rockies came to Fenway and the only Sox pitcher to escape unpounded was Wakefield. Beckett lost to Fogg 7-1 (my only trip to Boston this year), and Schilling got blasted to the tune of 12-3. I think the Sox will advance to the WS all right, but the Rox make me very nervous.

The best match for Minnesota would probably be the Dodgers, who are stocked with young talent and are inclined to trade it for veterans.

The Rockies are unstoppable right now.  However, streaks don’t last indefinitely.  The only question is whether Colorado can get through the post-season before the worm turns.

If Cashman is indeed interested in him, perhaps he’s holding out to see if the frontrunning team for a trade (if it’s not the Yankees) is a team that can hope to keep Santana when he becomes an FA. If it’s the Dodgers, that could very well happen, and if Cashman wants to get him, then he needs to trade. But if the Twins want to make a move and there is a team out there who is willing to go all in for 2008 with no hope of signing Santana for 2009, then it makes sense to stand pat with our rotation for 2008 and just lay out the money for Santana in 2009. It’d be the difference between losing 2 high draft picks over losing 2-3 good/great young players at the MLB level.

The best match for Minnesota would probably be the Dodgers, who are stocked with young talent and are inclined to trade it for veterans.

Right, that’s exactly what I was thinking. If the Dodgers are in play, and Cashman wants Santana, he’s going to have to trade. LA can trade for Santana with prospects AND afford to resign him when he hits FA. They are probably the only other team besides perhaps the Red Sox and Mets that could afford to do something like that, but I don’t the the Red Sox or Mets have the ammo in the farm system to pull of a trade like that.

Cashman should certainly explore this opportunity, but the Yanks can’t really afford to give up two or three of their best young players for Santana - especially since their roster is laden with older guys.  If Santana goes to the Dodgers, that won’t affect the balance of power in the AL East.  Also, if Hughes and Joba continue to progress, the Yanks will have the kind of pitching they need to go deep into the playoffs without trading away future stars like Jackson or Tabata.

There’s also something about not wanting to have to deal with 2 weeks of back pages if the Yankees do something blockbuster related to Santana. I honestly feel great going to the mattresses with Joba (who I think can be a top flight starter next year, similar to Verlander), Hughes, Wang, Kennedy, Pettite, Mussina over the next 2 years. I think the difference in this team going forward will be how quickly these guys progress (which we have to feel comfortable about in the wake of Hughes and Joba’s stretch run/playoff performances) and how Cashman fills in the holes. He’s already got two of them taken care of if he hangs on to Betemit and Molina. This needs to be a bullpen building 12 month stretch.

I agree with you, j.  Even in terms of the bullpen, Cashman needs to decide whether to re-sign Vizcaino, which he probably should if he’s amenable to a two year deal and Villone, who might make sense for one year.  After that, he should look to unload Farnsworth.  The rest of the bullpen arguably can be provided in house, especially as free agent middle relievers tend to be overpriced and won’t necessarily be better than what the Yanks already have.  From the pool of Ohlendorf, Veras, Kevin Whelan (who is currently pitching the AFL), Edwar, Britton Humberto Sanchez and perhaps David Robertson the Yanks need to see who can get batters out and who can’t.  Hopefully, a few guys will emerge - with my money going on Ohlendorf and Britton, along with Vizcaino as an 80 inning type guy.  Also, perhaps Chase Wright can take the Ron Villone role as lefty swing man.

You can also argue that Farnsworth, Igawa and Giambi are ‘tradeable’, meaning, your plan for 2008 doesn’t really hinge on them being a backbone of the offense, defense, bullpen or rotation. If Cashman is willing to realize that these guys are sunken costs ($5.5M + $4M + $21M) and is willing to eat a significant portion of salary, you could land some bullpen help. An NL west team would take Igawa (the Padres had interest IIRC, there are AL teams looking for DH’s, and Farnsworth probably has value with the Cubs, Cards, Braves or even Phillies. That’s 3 players and thus a lot of possibilities.

As for Vizcaino, I’m concerned that there’s no Quantrill/Proctor/Vizcaino type in the pen if they don’t resign him.  Guys like that are what gets the pen through the season. If they don’t resign Vizcaino, who is that guy? Chris Britton? 300 lb guys tend to break down over 162 games, I would think.

Vizcaino for 2 years, kids, and explore trade possibilities while eating some money.

I hope the Yankees plans for the offseason involve bringing most of the same players back.  Obviously you may want to move around some bullpen arms but in my opinion this was the deepest Yankee roster since the 90s.  When your House Money lineup still has guys like Molina, Duncan, and Betemit hitting, you’re definitely doing something right.

A few things. If Torre is let go, it would be so the team can move in another direction. It wouldn’t make sense then to bring Mattingly in as manager. Even he has stated that he hopes to be the same type of manager as Joe Torre. While Torre allows players to succeed by controlling the environment they are in, allowing them to play to their capabilities, Girardi could get the team fired up and allow them to play above their individual levels.

Also, what do you guys think about Roger Clemens as a possibly replacement for Guidry? He obviously enjoys helping the young kids, and Joba and Phil might really benefit from his experience and knowledge. Just a hypothetical.

And I laugh at Giambi making $21 million a year. Granted he was injured, but he has been injured nonstop for the last 2 1/2 seasons. I hope we can get rid of him. It’s time that he retires.

What do you guys think about the starting pitching staff next season? Think Mussina or Pettitte will come back? I hope Clemens can finally retire. Though, it would be ashame to end it like this. What about Pettitte, Chamberlain, Hughes, Kennedy, Wang as our starting pitchers? Thats kind of exciting. I really hope they don’t make Joba the closer. He has the stuff to be a #1 Ace anywhere in baseball.A Cy Young Award winner.

Also CC is basically a left-handed Daniel Cabrera right now.

It’s amazing that CC Sabathia has 11 walks so far this postseason. He had only 37 the entire 2007 campaign.

Mussina will almost certainly be back since he’s signed for 2008 and probably wouldn’t accept a trade to anyone but the Mets (a trade, by the way, which is worth exploring although only for the right return).  Let’s not forget that Joba and Hughes will be limited to 150-160 innings next season, so someone like Mussina could prove valuable in helping to pick up the slack.

If you’re running the Twins, why wouldn’t you take your chances going into 2008 with Santana playing for a contract and Liriano coming back?  Losing Santana for just the draft picks isn’t the worst thing in the world if you win it all in his last season with your team.  And if Minnesota doesn’t wind up hitting enough to contend, you can always do the Santana bidding war thing at the trade deadline.

Also, what do you guys think about Roger Clemens as a possibly replacement for Guidry? He obviously enjoys helping the young kids, and Joba and Phil might really benefit from his experience and knowledge. Just a hypothetical.

i’m not sure he can.  doesn’t Roger have a lifetime service contract with the Astros? 

but he wouldn’t be the worst guy for the job.

If you’re running the Twins, why wouldn’t you take your chances going into 2008 with Santana playing for a contract and Liriano coming back?

i probably would, but if someone like the Dodgers offered you 3 blue-chippers, you really have to think hard about that.  that’s a trade that can turn a team’s fortunes around.

If Santana goes to the Dodgers, that won’t affect the balance of power in the AL East.

i agree with this.  part of me wants to see the Twins pull off an extension or if he’s going to the Dodgers, to just let him go.

as much as i would love to have Johan, getting Johan feels almost “unfair” and i think it would turn off a lot of fans.  i love the yankees, but i also love the game, and i think it would be bad for baseball if the yankees (or red sox) got johan.

i’d probably get over it in a day or 2, but part of me wants to see what we can do with Pettitte, Hughes, Joba, Wang, and Kennedy. 

of course, if Boston were involved, everything i said flies out the window.

Mr. Shelley Duncan might be coming to my school. No joke.

as much as i would love to have Johan, getting Johan feels almost “unfair” and i think it would turn off a lot of fans.  i love the yankees, but i also love the game, and i think it would be bad for baseball if the yankees (or red sox) got johan.

It would probably be viewed as unfair.  But its much less unfair than a Dice-k acquisition which didn’t involve a trade at all.

Back to ARod - why isn’t Boras making more of a stink that the Red Sox will sign ARod if the Yankees don’t extend/sign him? That’s got to be like a 10 game swing in the AL East if ARod goes to the Red Sox.

Someone call the police. Joel Sherman has been kidnapped and replaced with someone who knows WTF they are talking about:

THIS assignment is to fix the Yankees, and the initial flaw is assuming the Yankees need major fixing. Overreacting to playoff losses is folly. There is no way to build a team to win strictly in the postseason. Last year Jeff Weaver and Kenny Rogers - of all people - got hot in October and pitched the Cardinals and Tigers, respectively, into the World Series.

—Back to ARod - why isn’t Boras making more of a stink that the Red Sox will sign ARod if the Yankees don’t extend/sign him? That’s got to be like a 10 game swing in the AL East if ARod goes to the Red Sox—

Because Boras knows that the most likely scenerio is that Arod remains a yankee.  And the last thing Arod needs for his PR is to have a threat of going to boston loom over this deal.

Watching Boston-Cleveland, I am pretty impressed with the level of play.  I’m going back and forth on thinking that these teams are just better than the Yankees were this year and thinking that, indeed, if the Yankees had deployed their personnel better (per suggestions made here and on other blogs) in the series with Cleveland than they’d be 1-1 against Boston right now.

I guess this had been coming down the pike, but the New York Post is reporting that Hank and Hal Steinbrenner are getting set to officially take control of the Yankees.  Apparently, finalizing a new arrangement will be part of next week’s meetings in Tampa.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=txyankeessteinbrenner&prov=st&type=lgns

Obviously, this could have a large effect on whether or not Joe Torre is brought back, and the general direction the Yankees take going forward.

and the general direction the Yankees take going forward.

ESPN talks about that too, and apparently Hank has said he would “insist on” Joba being a starter next year.  Good for him!