I still stand by the fact that I don’t think he was injured running in the straight line from 3B to home. If you go back and watch that inning, Wang was on first, there was a grounder and the infielder misplayed the ball so instead of Wang easily being out via force at second there was a really close play in which he didn’t slide into 2B. Instead he awkwardly stepped half his foot on the base while trying to stop his momentum completely.

I am convinced that is where he injured the foot, he just didn’t notice it (or didn’t want to let anyone know because he thought he needed to stay in the game) until he completed his trip around the bases.

Whether his shoulder injury was a result of over-compensation for lack of leg strength or it was just a ticking time bomb that was going to explode at some point, we will never know.

from what I vaguely remember, Sterling agrees with you, mr tedbrogen.

It would be pretty ironic if Wang signs with an NL team, but I think (hope) he will be back.

I posted this in the last thread but here it goes, have fun.

how much would you pay for Wang?

I think he’s now part of that Dushecer, Sheets, etc. group. He’ll probably be the cheapest of them. Given the Yankees familiarity with Wang and Sheets’ outrageous asking price why not sign Wang to be that #6 or so starter?

Also, Matt Capps was non-tendered as well. His fastball went from being a good pitch for 3 years straight to a bad pitch this year and his BABIP skyrocketed to .370 from sitting between ~.270 and ~.280.

I thought Cust would be interesting, but took a closer look. If the Yankees think they can get him back to 2007 (OBP .408, ISO .248) or even 2008 (.375, .245) he’d be an interesting candidate for the DH spot. Otherwise he was pretty mediocre last year (.356, .177).

[3] I think Duchsherer and Escobar are better investments than Wang. They are ahead of Wang on the recovery process.

Wang just had his second shoulder surgery at the end of July.

Escobar had shoulder surgery in March 2008 and had some complications afterwards, so one could assume he is more likely to be healthy than the guy who had shoulder surgery 15 months after that.

Duchsherer is physically healthy at this point in time as far as we know. He missed time in 2009 because of depression. He was healthy for almost all of 2008 (missed 3 weeks with an inflamed bicep but pitched well otherwise). He missed a lot of time in 2007 with a hip problem.

Not to mention, Duchsherer and Escobar would be able (willing?) to pitch in the pen if they are healthy but there is no room for them in the rotation. Wang would be a nice #6 starter if they can keep him on a minor league deal (Why not give him a $1M or so base minor league deal with easily attainable incentives for IP in the majors with those incentives allowing him to make upto $5M based on IP?). If it takes a major league deal for Wang, I would rather they try Duchsherer and/or Escobar.

I am against Sheets if he is being granted a spot in the rotation at the start of the season.

Perfect world scenario for me - they sign Duchsherer or Escobar to an incentive laden major league deal with them knowing they start the season in the pen and get first crack at starts if another starter is needed. They also retain Wang on a minor league deal. This would give them this rotational depth:
#6 Duchsherer/Escobar, #7 Wang, #8 Gaudin, #9 Aceves, #10 McCallister, #11 Nova

[4] Cust is intriguing, but he will likely make at least $3M-$4M, and that’s halfway to keeping Matsui. However, if their really is no market for Cust (because of the high K totals and him being just a DH) and it only costs $1M-$2M for him, and Matsui is going to cost $8M-$10M, I think Cust might be the better move. Especially, if they are willing to take that savings and go get Holliday.

Very disheartened to see Wang hitting the road. Dodger Stadium could help him maintain a low homer rate. If he stays healthy, I’d be shocked if Wang weren’t at least a competent # 3 starter in the N.L. West. [Los Angeles is the rumored top suitor at this point, at least according to a report I heard on 1050 yesterday]

I think Duchsherer and Escobar are better investments than Wang. They are ahead of Wang on the recovery process.

As is Sheets. That’s why I think that Wang should be considerably cheaper. So, depending on what develops with Halladay or some other non-recovering pitcher that Cash may be considering, I don’t think the signing of Duchsherer, Escobar, or Sheets would necessarily preclude signing Wang, unless, as I alluded to on the previous thread, Wang has negative feelings toward the Yankees as a result of their reported gloating over their arbitration victory in 2008 (I don’t recall that). If so, then perhaps the issue is moot.

Ted’s posting are clearly infected with the dreaded and notorious “Holliday” virus.
Frog, see Rich’s link in [8]: the stuff Feinsand writes (even if he is slightly exaggerating) - that’s the kind of stuff I meant.

Conkles, that’s the first time I’ve laughed glancing at the “Logged in users” list.

nobody would take a chance on capps? i think he’s worth a look at least

I think Duchsherer and Escobar are better investments than Wang. They are ahead of Wang on the recovery process.

As is Sheets.

The issue I have with this is that if either of those 3 guys are going to sign, they’re going to want to be in the rotation from opening day, right? That’ll push one of Chamberlain or Hughes to the bullpen, and we’ll have to go through all that drama again in 2010. Personally, I trust Cashman to make a plan and stick to it, but I’d really just like to plan to give Hughes and Chamberlain the ball 27-28 and 32 times respectively and see what they can do.

The guy you want is going to give you depth and insurance, not displace the development of one of those two, and not be an insurance policy that’s more like a lottery ticket than anything. Just my 2 cents.

Let’s not forget that from 2006 until mid-2008, Wang was the winningest pitcher in the AL and a huge reason why the Yankees got to the postseason in 2006-07.

Dear Mr. Feinsand,

Let’s also not forget that this is the fourth time that Wang has missed time with shoulder problems, and the second time he’s had shoulder surgery.  Oh, and is this really gloating?

The $4 million represents the highest salary arbitration award for a first time eligible starting pitcher.

“We haven’t [gone to arbitration] since 2000 with Mariano Rivera,” said club president Randy Levine, who presented the Yankees’ case. “However, when the agents and players demand is disproportional to the market, we have to go.”

Wang was OK with the verdict, according to his agent.

“He is fine,’’ Alan Nero said. “He was prepared. It’s a business, we move forward and he is excited about the season.”

Because it was a $600,000 difference, many insiders were surprised the sides didn’t reach a middle ground and avoid having Wang hear negatives about what has been a solid career (46-18) outside of October’s ALDS vs. the Indians, in which he was rocked in two starts.

“Based on where the market is there is no room to go higher,’’ GM Brian Cashman said. “The mid-point made no sense. We filed and we defended it.”

[11] Isn’t Capps kind of homer-ific?  Surely you don’t think he could thrive in DNYS?

[12] Are those guys on record WRT to expecting to start?

[13] I remember people complaining about Wang’s going to arbitration, but I liked that Cashman and Levine held their ground. Had Wang been kept through these next 2 arbitration years, the $600,000 would have only served to affect those negotiations and end up with a bigger payday for Wang in each of those negotiations.

[14] I’m assuming so for Bedard and Sheets, as they’ve never relieved.

For Escobar, I’m wrong.. I found this article an article on WEEI.com talking about the Red Sox pursuing Escobar:

One other option, Kelvim Escobar, wasn’t trending toward the Red Sox’ direction as the meetings came to a close. Escobar, who is heading into next season with the sole purpose of being a reliever, got a good report from Mets’ doctor Robert Altchek, Tuesday, and was hoping to squeeze in some winter baseball innings. If Escobar isn’t able to pitch in winter ball, he may offer a showcase for interested teams in January, perhaps having to rely on a minor league deal. According to a source familiar with the situation, however, the Red Sox weren’t one of the teams showing the strongest interest in Escobar.

Rototimes also has him pitching winter ball in Venezuela, and sites the Yankees checking in on him, FWIW.

This is also from another article on WEEI.com about Duchscherer

Duchscherer is believed to be ready for action from the outset of spring training, and has no interest in going back to the bullpen, where he made his first All-Star team as a set-up man for Oakland in ‘05.

So it would seem like, if you agree Chamberlain and Hughes shouldn’t get bumped, that Escobar would be the only option. From that article, however, it seems like Escobar is hardly a sure thing to be ready by spring training.

Good stuff, j.  Thanks.

[16]  well, if Escobar was cleared by the METS’ doctor, i see no risk whatsoever

The Daily News had an interesting piece on former Yankee (and former Met) Robin Ventura, who apparently had such a major problem with his ankle that he was walking with a cane a few years ago!

He had some fancy new surgery where they actually transplanted an ankle from a corpse into his foot, and it seems like it has worked great. Modern science rules!

i also heard that after years of crippling arthritis, Nolan Ryan had a hand transplanted from a corpse and he punched Ventura in the face with it.

[18] On the other hand, clearly the Mets have a doctor who has seen everything that can possibly be wrong with a ballplayer, short of Ebola.

[19] He could probably also use some corpse fists, assuming his insurance would cover it.

[10] (lantern)

[20] Beat me by 30 seconds! Jeez.

Wow, Ventura is part Zombie. Can’t Matsui get a dead guy’s knees?

[14] When I wrote about him last night I don’t remember him having HR problems before last year. Basically, it looks like the wheels totally fell off last year, however it looks to be a SSS/luck issue. Maybe something changed that made him less effective but the metrics seem to say that he pitched nearly as well as he did the two previous years when he was quite good.

Supposedly some talk of the Royals shopping Alberto Callaspo. Not very good 2B defense, have ability to be not good in other defense positions, not sure if his 2009 114 OPS+/power was fluke or turned the corner. Like? or pass?

Ted’s posting are clearly infected with the dreaded and notorious “Holliday” virus.

Is that similar to Carter & Sons’ BBQ “Swine Fever”?

Couldn’t a healthy Wang be Ramiro Mendoza II?

Oh, here come the jokes.

When they cut Wang, did they have a bris?

Bill Madden is reporting that Wang already turned down a minor league offer from the Yankees.

[29] I heard that Wang was thrown from the window of a moving car into a field.

[13] That players even complain about the arbitration process is almost comical. As Steinbrenner and others have observed over the years, it has historically been the biggest driver of salary inflation. The only means that an organization has to tamp down on that outcome is to paint a player’s accomplishments in the most negative light possible (some believe that aspect has harmed MLB’s ability to market itself, but that’s another issue). In any event, it’s not personal, and players usually “win” even when they lose.

Either Feinsand is wrong about Wang’s sentiments, or he he has been spun by someone associated with Wang, or perhaps Wang is naive.

As I have said, I believe that Wang will re-sign with the Yankees if they make a competitive offer, and I don’t see the offers being that high.

[30] That wouldn’t be surprising. It makes sense to see what other offers are out there.

[31] In the realm of the FO, the move makes sense.

So it would seem like, if you agree Chamberlain and Hughes shouldn’t get bumped, that Escobar would be the only option. From that article, however, it seems like Escobar is hardly a sure thing to be ready by spring training.

On Friday, Cash told Francesa on WFAN (see link on page for the interview) that he would like to add a starting pitcher. When asked about one of the “prominent guys out there” (Francesa’s words), he said he “wouldn’t rule it out.” He also said that Hughes and Joba will prepare as starters unless he does some with “another starter [that] provides certainty.”

[35] Well, that certainly changes things, although, you can interpret that as him just staying in the high level SP market (Halladay, Lackey) so that if the Red Sox do try to make a deal with one of those players, they have to consider the Yankees as also interested.

On the flip side, can Cashman’s supposed lack of interest in Holliday or Bay be prelude to signing one of them (like he did with Teixiera)?  Even if he really doesn’t want Holliday, he could force the Red Sox into a tough spot if he can keep the market value for Holliday low enough such that a team like the Mets or Cardinals pick him up.

[27] I can’t see that working out well, except as a long reliever. Mendoza was used all sorts of ways, not just in long relief.

Wang turned down a split contract with the guarantee of a roster spot once his shoulder is healthy. He’s holding out for guaranteed money. Could this be a sign that his shoulder is a bigger question mark than previously assumed?

Do you guys think that the Yankees would change their offer to a full ML deal at any point?

Do you guys think that the Yankees would change their offer to a full ML deal at any point?

I hope not. Shoulder surgeries aren’t easy to comeback from, let alone a second major shoulder surgery. I don’t care what Wang or his agent are saying about him believing he will be ready for the start of the season. Wang hasn’t pitched at an effective level since pre-ASB 2008, so I am not sold he will be able to recover, get back into shape, build his arm strength back up, and be vintage Wang.

In my mind it is more likely that when Wang returns and is able to pitch at whatever point that occurs next season that he pitches more like 2009 historically bad start of the season Wang than 2006-2007 vintage Wang.

[39] I’m not sure if they should or not, but if they do they could send him straight to the DL until they deemed him ready. The only difference between the split deal and the ML deal and DL would be the money.

And the roster spot.

Yeah, I think the Yanks view the roster spot as the biggest sticking point.

40 man has 37 players right now and I’m sure the Yankees could survive the loss of one of Reegie Corona, Eduardo Nunez, Ramiro Pena or Kevin Russo. Also, Christian Garcia and Juan Miranda don’t seem like good bets to contribute greatly to the Yankees at any point. Edwar is on there as well.

It would definitely be an issue, but since they were willing to give him a spot once healthy it doesn’t seem that it would be a huge one.

You know who was another SP coming off serious shoulder surgery signed by an AL East team wishcasting he would return to a vintage version of himself: John Smoltz.

I don’t see any reason to expect more out of Wang in 2010 than the Sox got out of Schmoltz last season.

I don’t see any reason to expect more out of Wang in 2010 than the Sox got out of Schmoltz last season.

29 year olds recovering from surgery have to have better outlooks than 42 year olds, no?

Bill Madden also reported that Boras told the Yankees not to bother giving any offers to Damon that weren’t at least 3 years long.

I think it’s time to move on and find an actual LF. Or if worst comes to worst, let Melky takeover LF for one season, which I would rather they do than give Damon 3 or more years.

29 year olds recovering from surgery have to have better outlooks than 42 year olds, no?

True, but then you get to find out if you have 2009 Wang or 2007 Wang.

Yeah, I think the Yanks view the roster spot as the biggest sticking point.

Player on the 60 day DL don’t count against the 40 man roster.

Also, we’re forgetting that if the Yankees essentially sponsor Wang’s recovery, and he does prove useful by even the ASB, then they also have him under team control for 2010.

Or at least they would have if they offered him a contract.

True, but then you get to find out if you have 2009 Wang or 2007 Wang.

The equation (to me) has to be this.. is what Wang would have made this year (say $4M) and in arbitration in 2010 (say $5M) worth what he could give you in those two seasons combined, which goes directly to your confidence in his recovery. Perhaps Cashman isn’t confident in his chances to recover, or in his ability once he recovers, or some combination of the two, such that he wouldn’t be worth that money.

2009 Wang or 2007 Wang

2009 Wang isn’t really Wang though, right? You’re not talking about volatility in performance, you’re talking about a pitcher who hurt his foot, didn’t recover properly, and then injured his already balky shoulder as a result. 2009 Wang was an injured pitcher struggling to stay on the field.. the performance to me is almost irrelevant.

I meant arbitration in 2010 for the 2011 season in [50].

Player on the 60 day DL don’t count against the 40 man roster.

But there is no 60 day DL in the off-season, so to sign him they would have to have him on the 40 man all off-season, then once the season started he could be put on the 60 day DL.

Also, we’re forgetting that if the Yankees essentially sponsor Wang’s recovery, and he does prove useful by even the ASB, then they also have him under team control for 2010.

Which is only advantageous if they believe he has a decent chance to return to his old form, and they have a lot more knowledge of his medical situation than we do.

I really doubt that 40 man space will be a sticking point to bring Wang back. It boils down to whether the Yankees beleive he is likely to recover or not. Also, how much does Wang want?

Yeah, I think the Yanks view the roster spot as the biggest sticking point.

I thought that was another Wang joke.

[55] I’m actually pretty disappointed at the lack of Wang jokes over the past two days.

Not that I’m contributing or anything.

I didn’t think I executed my joke correctly in [34].

Can’t Matsui get a dead guy’s knees?

Are they still parting out Ted Williams, or is it only head that’s left ?

If you assume that the Yankees still want to add a pitcher, a LF and s DH, then you have to think the roster spot is a very big deal.  Giving Wang a major league contract is also a big deal because he would be limited to 30 days of minor league rehab unless he signs a split contract.  yes, he could be put on the 60 day DL on Opening Day, and spend a month in Tampa throwing simulated games before spending a month making minor league starts, but what if he’s not ML-ready at that point?

Wang’s agent has not said that he expects to be ready for opening day; he’s said that he expects to be ready by May 1.  So right off the bat, he wants guaranteed money for what he admits will be a partial season.  Somebody might give him that, but I won’t shed an tears if it’s not the Yankees.

[56] - You might say that we are feeling deflated.

[59] While I’m sure the Yankees don’t want to move anyone off of their 40 man roster, there are a few names on there that would not be huge losses.

I thought that the Yankees could keep Wang on the DL indefinitely, until they believed him to be healed.

vintage Wang
Girls the world over should learn this lesson:
Vintage Wang is better than new Wang.

Am I wrong to find Wang’s position offensive?  If he were healthy and pitching well, they’d WANT to put him on the roster.  So what he really wants is the right to occupy a roster spot he can’t justify by performance, just so he can do his part to cripple the team with which he’s associated?  I understand asking for money, a right to be traded, etc., but that’s just not right.

[62] He’s not demanding the roster spot he’s demanding the guaranteed money. Basically on a split contract he gets payed s very low sum for all of his time spent in the minors and a considerably higher sum on the major league roster. It is all pro-rated. So instead of being payed something like 300,000 for minor league time and 3 million major league time he just wants 3 million straight.

[63] those numbers are totally POOMA.

[63]
Yes, I guess I was taking what was written too literally.

[61]  Yes, they can keep him on the DL indefinitely, but he can only spend 30 days on minor league rehab.  Any team that believes Wang will need more than ST, extended ST, and 30 days in the minors would be making a huge mistake to give him a major league contract.  Being ahead of schedule is great and all, but starting his throwing program a couple of weeks sooner than his surgeon thought his would doesn’t mean that he’ll be hitting 95 with heavy sink and good command by May 1, or even Jun 1.

[63]  Yes, of course he wants guaranteed money, but guaranteed contract means major league contract, which means a 40-man roster spot, by definition.  Since Wang is out of options, 40-man roster spot = 25-man roster spot once he comes off the DL.  Any way you slice it, that’s a problem. 

Now what we don’t know is what the terms of the split contract offer were, and whether it was rejected simply because it was a split contract (ie, on principle) or just because the terms weren’t generous enough (ie, Wang and Nero aren’t absolutely opposed to a contract that would save the team a roster spot and potentially allow Wang more minor league time).  I suppose you could give him a signing bonus to tide him over during his rehab, or really overpay him by minor league standards, but I don’t think there are many teams that are going to want to give him a guaranteed contract unless it’s for the minimum, and I’m not getting the sense that that’s what Nero has in mind.

MC, you’re saying they CAN’T sign him to a MiL contract and guarantee him money?  That’s actually forbidden?

Wang is really getting screwed in all of this. If he had been injured a year or 2 years later people would be talking about signing him to a 4-5 million dollar base deal. Now we’re talking split contracts and near minimum with incentives.

I understand why they are looking for guaranteed money, but it is unlikely they get it from a team that is looking to seriously contend next year. I hope that Nero and Wang reconsider and take a split contract with the Yankees. And I think that the Yankees offer of a split contract is totally reasonable.

I will be sad to see the Merciless go.

[67] I think, but am by no means absolutely certain, that minor league contracts basically pay scale.  So I guess I should have said “guaranteed salary” instead of “guaranteed money” or “guaranteed contract”.  But as I said, they could certainly guarantee money by just paying it up front (ie—as a bonus).

[67] I disagree.  Ben Sheets would be an example of a pitcher who got injured a year or two later in his service time, right?  And he went unsigned for a year and hasn’t gotten any guaranteed offers yet this winter either AFAIK.

And just to clarify, I was only disagreeing with your first paragraph, Clay.  I completely agree with your second paragraph.

[70] Yeah, but the offers people not named Sheets have been talked about are for 4-5 million plus incentives. We’re talking about split contracts and near minimum base for Wang.

The issue with Sheets is more health than asking price isn’t it? Or it was last year, now it seems to be a combination.

[68]

I disagree.  It’s not just that Wang was hurt, twice, he’s had shoulder surgery (which is hard to recover from at all) twice, and has been absolutely putrid when’s he pitched.

That’s a lot different than a guy like Bedard, who’s at least been effective when healthy.

So the Yankees cut Wang, eh? One apostrophe away from a good joke.

Being ahead of schedule is great and all, but starting his throwing program a couple of weeks sooner than his surgeon thought his would doesn’t mean that he’ll be hitting 95 with heavy sink and good command by May 1, or even Jun 1. Or Sept 1, or Oct 1, or ever again.

Fixed to take into account it was his second major shoulder surgery.

I think, but am by no means absolutely certain, that minor league contracts basically pay scale.

Even if minor league contracts are all scale, can’t they just give Wang a large signing bonus to make up the difference for signing a minor league contract? Let’s say scale for Wang in the minors is $400K (just picking a number), they could just give him a $2.6M signing bonus (assuming his price was $3M). Then he is getting his money, but they get the flexibility.

“The Curse of the Cut Wang” has a pretty good sound to it. Someone remember that if the 2010 season ends devastatingly.

[76] Magnificent.

I am seriously glad I did not stay up for the rest of the 4th quarter.

[78] I watched the entire game, but I was never particularly confident because it was apparent that the Eagles could score virtually any time they felt like it.

I am seriously glad I did not stay up for the rest of the 4th quarter.

I did, which has contributed to me being an angry person for the past 9+ hours.

I watched the entire game, but I was never particularly confident because it was apparent that the Eagles could score virtually any time they felt like it.

The defense is definitely not good this year.  Interesting hearing Collinsworth talking about how, “you can’t give Coughlin enough credit for benching the veterans on defense”.  B/c benching the veterans led to allowing the Cowboys to score 24 points, and then the defense that allowed the Eagles to score 31 points?  Yep, winning strategy.

And on CMW, we have no idea at this point what he’ll accept.  He NEEDS to be on an MiL deal.  Not just for the roster spot (which is a concern as well), but as MC says you can’t assume he’ll only need 30 days in the minors.  Especially say he starts pitching rehab games May 1st, and then on June 1st he’s out of rehab time, but all starters are healthy and pitching well in NY.  That movie played last year, and ended with Hughes in the bullpen.  If he’s on an MiL contract, he comes up both when the he’s healthy AND the Yankees need him.

I don’t think the Yanks will make any move for a starter until late January or early February.  Unless they get an offer they can’t refuse (e.g. Sheets contacts them about starting on a split-contract).  At least one of the rehab cases will be left w/o a chair, which may mean they’re willing to start the year in the pen, or willing to take a split contract.

can’t they just give Wang a large signing bonus to make up the difference for signing a minor league contract?

You mean like I said?  Twice?

I view this as filler during a news drought.

Feinsand:

While Cashman continues to monitor the Roy Halladay situation in Toronto, the general manager is looking at a couple of pitchers coming back from arm surgery: Justin Duchscherer and Ben Sheets.

[..]

According to a source, the Yankees will likely wait to see what John Lackey signs for before making any moves, as they continue to consider other options such as Jason Marquis and Joel Pineiro.

contributed to me being an angry person for the past 9+ hours

I’m not upset at all. Every loss is a reminder how the Yankee’s vampired off all the Giants’ mojo to win the World Series. It actually makes me smile.

And in other news, durp durp “Cheetah Woods” durp durp durp.

The defense is definitely not good this year.

I don’t really keep up with the Giants outside of Sunday from noon to midnight, but Umenyiora really has taken a nose dive, huh? He was probably the best defensive linemen they had on the Super Bowl team, and now he spends most of his time on the sideline. Lingering injury from last year’s preseason?

It’s not just Osi. All of the defensive linemen that are coming off knee surgery have had diminished performances; neither Robbins nor Cofield are getting the same push up the middle. Tuck has been debilitated since that POS Flozell Adams, who should be banned for life, cheap shotted him in Game 2. Their safeties are awful without Kenny Phillips. Their LBs are suboptimal. Sheridan is probably out of his element as a coordinator, at least in his first season. When your defense is that bad, and you have a kicker in Tynes who can’t keep deep, it’s pretty hard to stop teams.

I know that Wang has been beaten to death here, but I was late in responding…

There’s still a chance Wang could end up back in pinstripes, but I really doubt it at this point.  I blame the archaic National League rules.

Don’t pitchers have run to first base all time, as part of drills and in games? From a mound, no less? And stick their ankles into oncoming traffic while trying to find a base and catch a ball at the same time? And, therefore, aren’t people like Sterling and Kay silly for suggesting all the time that AL pitchers may hurt themselves because they are not used to running?

I’ll miss Wang.  I hope his career doesn’t end.  I understand why the Yankees are letting go of him, and am curious as to who will take the roster spot.

[87] Covering bases and backing up bases are fundamentally different than running the bases.  And as you note, AL pitchers practice one but not the other.

I think it was ted who noted either upthread or in another one that Wang most likely injured himself going into second base awkwardly rather than rounding third on the next play.  That kind of split-second decision about how to go into a base is something that guys who rarely run the bases are going to struggle with.  Sterling and Kay are in fact, morons, and so is Hank Steinbrenners, but that doesn’t negate the fact that AL pitchers really aren’t adequately prepared to run the bases once or twice a year.

but that doesn’t negate the fact that AL pitchers really aren’t adequately prepared to run the bases once or twice a year.

I wonder if anyone has ever studied how often pitchers get hurt batting or running the bases?  Including in practice?  For example, if pitchers get hurt in batting practice or practice running the bases in the NL more often than position players doing the same things, why would you want them practicing?  And if they then get hurt more often if they don’t practice why would you want them doing it at all?

I think the biggest argument you could make if you wanted to get a DH in the NL rule is, if pitchers are being hurt an inordinate amount of time doing things other than pitching.  E.g. if non-pitchers get injured 2.2x/100PA (or something), and pitchers get hurt 5.5x/100PA, why would you want them batting?

OTTOMH, I’d imagine that the total population of pitchers will always experience far more arm injuries that all other injuries combined.  Even for all the talk about Wang’s foot injury contributing to his shoulder injury, the fact remains that his shoulder has been on borrowed time since rookie ball.

[91] Oh yeah, I know Wang had other problems, and of course pitchers hurt their arms a lot.  Just thinking out loud - do pitchers get hurt more often doing non-pitching exercises (hitting, running bases) than non-pitchers?  Do pitchers in the NL get hurt more often than pitchers in the AL?  While difficult to prove cause and effect, if the answers to both those questions were a confident “yes”, then it’s fair to ask if “strategy” (should I have him bunt to 1B or 3B?) and “tradition” are worth having pitchers get hurt not pitching?

If of course pitchers get hurt less often it isn’t an argument.

If a pitcher running the bases is that much of a risk (and I agree that they are ill-prepared as a group), shouldn’t there be a heck of a lot more injuries to pitchers that we have seen since interleague play started? I can’t think of any other pitcher seriously injuring himself besides Wang.

[93] Well that’s what I’m asking.  Doesn’t even have to be a “serious” injury.  If a pitcher misses 3 starts b/c of a hamstring injury that would count too.  I mean, we’ve got one glaring case that (some) of us are angry about.  I’m pretty sure a few years ago Pettitte (while with Houston) hurt his ribs swinging at a pitch and missed some time (so that’s two if my memory is correct).  Are these oddities, or is it normal?  Also, I don’ think players (as a whole) miss *that* much time due to injury. 

So say pitchers in the AL miss 5% of the time for injuries occurred in non-interleague games.  Do pitchers in the NL miss more, less, or the same amount?  How much more/less?  If it is 10% (twice as often) that’s probably not enough for people to notice right away, but is significant.  And can we assign those to batting activities?  You may be able to get close just using the game-logs/DL reports, but it also may need a more in-depth study.  And probably not worth it :(

If a pitcher running the bases is that much of a risk (and I agree that they are ill-prepared as a group), shouldn’t there be a heck of a lot more injuries to pitchers that we have seen since interleague play started?

AL pitchers as a group probably have an OBP around .050 in interleague play.  Even over the course of a decade, that’s just not that many chances to hurt yourself running the bases.  Especially when you consider that a big chunk of that OBP was CC Sabathia’s home run trot.