No problem on the MLE for Joba Fabian, I’ll post it later tonight or early tomorrow morning.

Fabian, so, is this how guys who are supposed to be starters end up being closers?

Can’t say I understand this move considering they never really gave Britton and Edwar a shot to prove themselves.  Who’s to say Torre won’t underuse or abuse Joba?  Do the Yankee brass really think this is best for Joba and the Yanks’ future?

I don’t mind the move for Joba as much IF Torre doesn’t destroy him.
Perhaps this is a sign that a Farnsworth deal is in the works too.  Might we expect a new fungo bat, perhaps?

Can’t say I understand this move considering they never really gave Britton and Edwar a shot to prove themselves.

THEY put Edwar on the team for about 3 weeks.  he sat from 7/6 to 7/20.

maybe he should have been up a little earlier, but they still had a month before the deadline to see what they had. 

torre didn’t use him.  for no reason.

/dead horse

Joba’s MLE has been posted..  Better than I thought it’d be.

Britton is on the DL. Britton is also treading dangerous ground at 6’3 280.

Edwar is a nice story and may help down the line, but the guy is a one trick pony. He does not have the potential to impact the Yankees bullpen like Joba can if Joba can handle it. IOW Mariano c. 1996.

No matter what the Yankees say, I think it’s a panic move caused by the gaping hole in the pen.

Cashman et. al. have to dictate to Torre exactly how Joba is too be used, e.g., always starts innings, every other day, never warm him up more than once in game, etc.

btw, Did Montero re-injure his ankle?

“Edwar is a nice story and may help down the line, but the guy is a one trick pony.”

So is Trevor Hoffman.

“So is Trevor Hoffman. “

So is Mariano Rivera.

but it’s a REALLY good trick.

Fabian, who will you give up to get Gagne?

I heard a rumor that the Yanks are going to give Horne for Gagne and I don’t like it that much.

“but it’s a REALLY good trick.”

The reason I brought up Hoffman is that Hoffman did have a good fastball at one point, but has survived with out it for about 5 years now and it’s such a horseshit excuse for Torre to say “oh, he’s a one trick pony” when that one trick is a devastating change and we never got the chance to see whether or not he could help and there should be no excuse making for Torre on that one, whether or not you feel he’s been wrongly persecuted on this board (and he sometimes is). Torre should have been fired for that IMO, chemistry and comeback and all that other crap be damned. It was by far his worst move as a manager, at least that I can remember, and he deserves the consequences of his incompetency.

Cowboy — Nice, compare a guy off the scrap heap to a future HoF. That’s a real reach. And didn’t Hoffman used to throw much harder than Edwar can? I think he did. And where did Torre say the one trick pony line?

BTW, Torre said he made an error in not using Edwar more often, said so several times in different places. It was in the news, as they used to say.

Torre said he made an error in not using Edwar more often

He’s also said three years running that he wasn’t going to use Mo for more than one inning at a time.  Actions speak louder than words.

“compare a guy off the scrap heap to a future HoF. That’s a real reach. And didn’t Hoffman used to throw much harder than Edwar can? I think he did.”

Not really. Hoffman may have thrown gas when he was young, I don’t remember. His fastball has topped out in the low 90s since the late 90s, and is even slower now. Plenty of relievers can thrive off a fastball/change combination, so calling him a one trick pony is intentionally dishonest or ignorant.

“And where did Torre say the one trick pony line?”

He didn’t, you did. I’m saying your excuse is horseshit. That bullshit about him not being able to impact the bullpen either is total crap. He’s a strikeout pitcher, just because he doesn’t throw 99 doesn’t mean he couldn’t have been a serious, impact reliever immediately. But we’ll never know because Joe was too set in his ways to give the kid who struck out the fucking side in his major league debut a chance to show what he had. That’s inexcusable.

“Torre said he made an error in not using Edwar more often, said so several times in different places. It was in the news, as they used to say.”

So why are you defending his actions in post #7 when even he admits he was wrong?

How hard does Horne throw?  Would he be a better candidate in the BP than Joba?  If Joba is the top SP prospect in the Yanks system, is the limited value he’d bring in the Yankee BP worth the risk to his long-term role as a potentially dominant starter?

If not, then why not try Horne?

I also agree that we shouldn’t dangle Horne, or Marquez for that matter, to get Gagne.  Gagne is a rental player and a dangerous one at that, considering his past injury problems.  Is that worth Horne or Marquez?  I wouldn’t think so.  While the Yanks have two great prospects in Joba and Hughes, both are still ML-unproven, have a limited pro track record, and have had questions concerning injuries.

In short, Yanks can’t depend on Joba and Phil to cure what ails them just yet.  I’d keep my hands on Horne, Marquez and Kennedy just in case.

Gagne is not going to make or break the Yanks quest for the postseason.

Gagne is not going to make or break the Yanks quest for the postseason.

Now personally, I’m still undecided about Horne for Gagne.  I think that the Yankees’ scouts who see Horne all the time have to decide what they feel his ceiling is and go from there.  However, just ask yourself this:  if you feel Joba would be the make-or-break for the Yankees making the post-season - which many seem to but I don’t know if you do Yatt - than why not Gagne?

Mike - I really don’t think Gagne or Chamberlain will make or break the Yanks quest for the postseason.  One player is not going to fix the bullpen.  Even if that player could, you still have Torre’s BP management style.

Personally, I just don’t think this team is that good.  They just can’t compete with teams like Boston, Anaheim, Detroit, and Cleveland over the long haul.  I could see the Yanks losing a postseason series to each of these teams.

That said, I’d hesitate to mortgage my future to get a postseason bid.  I’d rather let Joba get more experience as a starter in the minors and keep the other prospects developing rather than putting Joba in the BP and/or trading a Marquez or Horne for Gagne.

I’m holding my breath for late 2008 or 2009, when the Yanks can throw out home-grown talents like Wang, Hughes, Chamberlain (maybe even Horne and/or Kennedy).  I’d hate to see that future throw into the wind for a chance to compete in the 2007 postseason.

I guess it comes down to instant versus delayed gratification.

I guess it comes down to instant versus delayed gratification

Well, the peripherals say that the Yankees should have about 7 or 8 more wins than they do, which would put them in the lead for the WC and right there for the division.  So I don’t know if the team just “isn’t that good”.  I guess you would need to use the game-logs to determine how many games the bullpen has cost them, where having an elite set-up man like Gagne would help.  Would it be 2 or 3?  Or 7 or 8?  I don’t know.  But I do think the Yankees certainly are going to be right there for the post-season run.

Now, I can certainly respect not giving up the future for the now.  But what has to be questioned is the chance of Horne even playing for the Yankees, never mind being an impact player.  Fabian is certainly the best one to answer that.  It just seems to me that Horne may be blocked by others ahead of him, and I don’t know if he distinguishes himself among the others at his level (e.g. Marquez).

Again, I’m not *sure* I would or would not do it, but if Cashman does pull the trigger, I’d be comfortable that he was making a good decision.

Cowboy — I neither defended nor disapproved of Torre’s handling of wonderboy Edwar. I merely pointed out that Torre said it was a mistake on his part.

Hoffman has tons of ML experience behind him and thus knows these hitters and how to set them up, his decreased velocity may also not be as great as some think. Comapring Edwar to Hoffman is silly, and that’s being kind.

Would I personally like to see Edwar get more of a shot? Yes, but my expectations are not all that high.

I think any and everyone in the system not named Joba or Hughes should be considered in a deal to improve the team…I’m not sure how much Gagne would improve the team though because I don’t trust him to be healthy.

Joba, 1 inning in relief, 3 K’s.

I think any and everyone in the system not named Joba or Hughes should be considered in a deal to improve the team…I’m not sure how much Gagne would improve the team though because I don’t trust him to be healthy.

As long as the improvement lasts longer than the end of the season, I agree.

If a team is going to trade high ceiling prospects, it should be in a package for players under 30 with significant upside and no injury history.