Jeter is an icon. He will retire a Yankee. Of this, I am certain. Would love to see more doubles this season than last. His fall off in XBH is troubling.

I hear there’s a procedure now to remove that fanboy problem.

This is a big year for Jeter and how he’ll project forward into his next contract.  There is no use worrying about it now since a lot depends on the type of 2009 he puts up. 

The fanboy in me is hoping for the best and ignoring all this talk for now.

By the way, Jeter’s BABIP for his career is .359, 3rd highest in baseball history (I last checked after the 2007 season) so a higher BABIP after June 18th isn’t that far off. 

http://sandbox.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jeterde01.shtml?redir

“The fanboy in me hopes that last year was just a blip and that Jeter rebounds to hit something like .310/.370/.450. But the stathead in me realizes that’s probably not happening.”

My sentiments exactly.

Someone should mention to Jeter how well it would play in the media if he volunteered, as a leader, to move from SS and play CF (for example).  The NY media would call his sacrifice one of the greatest for-the-good-of-the-team moves of all time…even if Jeter’s personal motivation was to garner positive PR.

Ok, I am sure this has been hashed to death, but ZR and UZR seem to be at odds violently on the general subject of J. J. Hardy in 2008. My understanding is they look at the same data in terms of trajectories and stuff. How come they are so different?

Yeah, the fanboy in me wishes Jeter plays at least passable defense, and offensively staves off the Bernie Williams aging syndrome for at least this year. This is an interesting comp.

Bernie, at age 33, had a 141 OPS+ season, and that plummeted to 107 at age 34. It became 108 in age 35, the season Jeter is going to enter. 

Jeter, at age 33, had a 120 OPS+ season, and that plummeted to 102 at age 34. I think he is going to be league average offensively, but not a huge offensive premium at SS that he used to provide.

I was also a total Bernie fanboy, and finally could not take all the balls that fell in a 10 meter radius around Bernie, and his noodle arm throws. I could have overlooked his offensive deficiencies, but his defensive deficiencies killed the Yankees.

I hope Jeter’s newfound defensive prowess persists. Otherwise, we need to reinvent a new word to replace ugly.

Okay, something seems wrong.  I’m sure all the math works out so maybe it is a scale (e.g. is one # against average and the other replacement?).  Jeter projects to be a little better offensively and a little worse defensively, which seems to me to indicate he should be about the same value, or a fraction of a win less.  Last year he was worth 3.7 WAR, and this year he’s going to be worth…1.8 WAR?  It’s not really an issue of playing time either, as he had either 668 or 661PA last year (the top 10 and his recap differ), and is projected for 647 this year.  What am I missing?

My understanding is they look at the same data in terms of trajectories and stuff. How come they are so different?

For one, ZR uses STATS data and UZR (this version anyway) uses BIS data.  So the data is *slightly* different.  For another ZR generally only cares about batted ball location - what zone is it in? - and result.  UZR also takes into account handedness of the pitcher, positioning of the fielders (e.g. is it a “double play” situation?), velocity of the ball, etc.  And the version on Fangraphs also has a component for ROE, and double-plays, and (for OF) throwing arm.

SG - you mentioned PECOTA is “way pessimistic” about 2009, but looking at 2008 projections, PECOTA was also “way pessimistic” but essentially nailed every aspect of his offensive performance.  Perhaps PECOTA is seeing something in the comparables that gives it an edge.  I hope not, because I’d love to see a Jeter rebound (and I have him in a fantasy team), but at this point the prognosis is grim.

Also, you have Jeter at 90 walks in the 2008 table, which is incorrect (he had 52).  Thanks for the great stuff as usual!

The sooner that Jeter retires the better for all involved.  15 years is a great run.  Frankly I don’t want him after next year.  I don’t give a crap about sentimentality with respect to baseball players.

The sooner that Jeter retires the better for all involved.

So the 2nd best SS in the AL should just go away?  And let Ramiro Pena be the starting SS (he’s the best the Yankees have right now)?  Jeter may not be what he once was, but this isn’t a below average player we are talking about, nor do the Yankees have a replacement at hand.  Unless they can somehow get Rollins or Reyes tomorrow, I’m happy seeing what DJ has left in the tank.

Someone should mention to Jeter how well it would play in the media if he volunteered, as a leader, to move from SS and play CF (for example).  The NY media would call his sacrifice one of the greatest for-the-good-of-the-team moves of all time…even if Jeter’s personal motivation was to garner positive PR.

While I have no doubt that you are dead on about the media adulation such a move would garner, I also have no doubt that moving a 35 year old who hasn’t shagged a fly since little league to CF would be an unmitigated disaster.

Yeah, the fanboy in me wishes Jeter plays at least passable defense, and offensively staves off the Bernie Williams aging syndrome for at least this year. This is an interesting comp.

I guess nobody noticed or remembers that Williams’ precipitous decline was brought on by specific knee and shoulder injuries.  Now of course, increased injury risk and more difficult recovery from injury come with the aging territory, but that doesn’t mean that we should assume every 35 year old is going to suffer a pair of catastrophic injuries.

The sooner that Jeter retires the better for all involved.

All?  Really?  I’m pretty sure that another contract would be better than an earlier retirement from Casey Close’s POV, and I bet we could think of a few other people who’d likely share his feelings on the subject.

Personally, I don’t care how overpaid he is now or on his next contract.  The transition to a different role where he can be an asset rather than a liability to the team is the only thing that matters.  It’s not hard to envision a way for an aging player to be useful playing four or five days a week at three or four different positions.  In fact, it happens all the time.  But that transition has to start with developing a viable major league shortstop.  Hindsight tells us that Cal Ripken waited a bit too long to move off of shortstop and start taking a day off now and then, but does anybody really blame him for not wanting to move for Manny Alexander?

but does anybody really blame him for not wanting to move for Manny Alexander?

C’mon!  That -37 OPS+ in 1996 was just Manny being Manny!

But that transition has to start with developing a viable major league shortstop.

Perhaps JJ Hardy will be available (AND open to signing an extension) soon.  Maybe Ramiro Pena or Eduardo Nunez (yes, I know he was only in A+ last year) will soon start hitting enough to indicate they could be every day players.  Further out, hoping Angelini or Lassiter harness their talents.  But until someone better comes along, what’s the point of moving or getting rid of Jeter?  Best, best case, is Pena can put up an OPS around .750 in AAA this year and in 2010 play enough (and well enough) that it makes sense for him to start in 2011.

Useless trivia:

Only three players with 9,000 or more PAs have played 99% of their games at SS.  Jeter, Omar Vizquel, and Luis Aparicio.  If you drop it all the way down to 5,000 PA, you pick up three more—Bucky Dent, Phil Rizzuto, and Everett Scott.  Aparicio never played an inning at another defensive position (although he did get into a handful of games without playing defense).  Jeter hasn’t played anywhere other than SS either… yet.

A .750 OPS would be a huge step forward for Pena, and there’s not much evidence that Nunez will ever hit a lick either.  They’re both switch hitters.  Does anybody know if either of them has a pronounced L/R split?  Maybe Pena hits well enough from the left side to start giving Jeter one day off a week in 2010?

no doubt that moving a 35 year old who hasn’t shagged a fly since little league to CF would be an unmitigated disaster.

Yes, but his offense wouldn’t justify a corner OF spot.  1B is no longer a possibility considering some guy named Teix is penciled in to play there for the next few years.  2B will have similar defensive depands as SS.  Is 3.7 WAR enough from a DH?  And I don’t want to be the one to suggest 3B as the only other possibility…so I used CF as my example.

Ok, I am sure this has been hashed to death, but ZR and UZR seem to be at odds violently on the general subject of J. J. Hardy in 2008. My understanding is they look at the same data in terms of trajectories and stuff. How come they are so different?

Standard zone rating treats every single chance the same.  Every play made by a shortstop is treated as being worth 0.753 runs.  Any chance hit into a zone where it is converted into an out at least 50% of the time has the same weight.  Every play made by a shortstop is treated as being worth 0.753 runs.  Also, standard zone rating appears to include popups, which are generally the easiest chances any fielder will see, as well as line drives.  UZR does not include those since it assumes the difference between players on those chances does not vary all that much.

Using 2005 Jeter as an example, he converted 434 of 523   of those defined zone rating chances into outs, a ZR .830.  League average AL SS ZR in 2005 was .828, so he graded out as average (runs saved of 0).

UZR will break the chances up by degree of difficulty, and will also make adjustments for the handedness of the pitchers and their groundball flyball ratio(groundball pitchers give up easier to field ground balls and fly ball pitchers give up easier to field fly balls).  UZR will weigh the chances differently based on the degree of difficulty, and will also weigh them differently depending by the zone they are hit into.  Jeter’s 2005 UZR shows that he should have made 438 outs, but instead he made 425, and his UZR was -13.  Taking a shot at reverse engineering that to see why they differ so much, let’s assume there are 10 zones that are the shortstop’s responsibility, and the plays in each zone are just a bit harder harder.

Depending on how Jeter’s chances are distributed in a given season, his ZR and UZR would differ.  In a season where he has more easy chances, his ZR will increase relative to his UZR.  In a season where he has more difficult chances, then his ZR may actually end up worse than his UZR.

The reason I like ZR despite those limitations is that the things that make it differ from UZR generally cancel out over time (as MGL himself told me in an interview), so it’s pretty good once we have multiple seasons of it.

Also, you have Jeter at 90 walks in the 2008 table, which is incorrect (he had 52).

Oops.  Fixed.

SG - you mentioned PECOTA is “way pessimistic” about 2009, but looking at 2008 projections, PECOTA was also “way pessimistic” but essentially nailed every aspect of his offensive performance.  Perhaps PECOTA is seeing something in the comparables that gives it an edge.  I hope not, because I’d love to see a Jeter rebound (and I have him in a fantasy team), but at this point the prognosis is grim.

Yeah, I just meant pessimistic in comparison to the other systems.  As far as which projection will end up being the closest, that’s why they play the games.

Okay, so who wins this fight: fanboy, all hopped up on crack cocaine with a lead pipe, or statboy, 5 redbulls and vodkas in, fighting mad, with a bicycle chain?

“Yes, but his offense wouldn’t justify a corner OF spot”

I suspect that Jeter will be on the team into his decline, so the point is to find the least bad place for him, even if a priori one wouldn’t put him there.  He can’t play CF (even ignoring the storied history there), so it sounds like LF or DH.

OTOH, maybe with modern training and medicine he’ll be able to defend at SS later than earlier comparables.

Thanks, Mike K. and SG for clarifying the differences between UZR and ZR. The example was illuminative.

So, apparently J. J. Hardy did well on tougher chances, but tanked on the easier chances like pop-ups.

“I suspect that Jeter will be on the team into his decline”

Unfortunately, he already is, and the Yankees are not moving him this year.  The question is what happens next year and beyond?  It’s hard to know what Cash and the Steins would base their decision on.  A lot of us here might say move him to another position next year, then let him go, assuming a comparable replacement can be found.  But there are a lot of serious Jeter fans out there who don’t believe teh Captain will ever decline.  Maybe the FO thinks, form a fannies-in-the-seats-and-memorabilia-sales perspective, that it’s better to have Jeter at short until he’s 45, even while I’m sure there are some in the FO who would say they’re approaching the point where a new SS is not just desirable but desperately necessary.  Who knows?  My point is that the Yankees might make a perfectly sensible business decision at odds with the best baseball decision.

Then again, Cash was pretty merciless with Bernie at the end.

A .750 OPS would be a huge step forward for Pena, and there’s not much evidence that Nunez will ever hit a lick either.

Yes, I agree 100%.  I was pointing out that they DON’T have a replacement ready, and listing things that would have to happen for them to have one soon.  It’s *possible* that these things could happen shortly, and if they *do* then we can talk about moving Jeter.  But they haven’t happened yet, so…

Yes, but his offense wouldn’t justify a corner OF spot.

In addition to what rilkefan said, we had a discussion a few weeks ago about moving to different positions vs. offense improving.  I had just poked around looking at some #‘s and it seems to me there *may* be something to moving to an easier defensive position allowing your offense to improve.  But that was just picking a few players, nothing scientific.  So question 1) what is Jeter’s true-talent level as a hitter?  2) Is there a real effect that offense improves moving to an easier defensive position, and if so how much can we expect? 

I think Jeter as a +20 offensive player (before position adjustment) hits just fine for a LF (if he’s average defensively).  We still need that SS replacement though…

Maybe the FO thinks, form a fannies-in-the-seats-and-memorabilia-sales perspective, that it’s better to have Jeter at short until he’s 45, even while I’m sure there are some in the FO who would say they’re approaching the point where a new SS is not just desirable but desperately necessary.

I suspect there is a middle ground, where most of the brass resides.  I’m pretty sure that they want Jeter to be a Yankee for life and to get that 3,000 hit in pinstripes.  I’m also pretty confident that they’ll be willing to significantly overpay for that.  But I really, really, really, doubt that they’ll be giving him another ten year contract.

As for positions, while I don’t see any reasons that Jeter couldn’t become a perfectly acceptable left or right fielder, I have a feeling that he’ll never play a game in the outfield.  Something about not wanting him to embarrass himself (not to be confused with not wanting to embarrass him).  So to me, the best case scenario would be for the Yankees to develop a slick-fielding, lefty-hitting SS with a big platoon split and have him gradually take the playing time away from the captain over the course of three or four seasons.  At the very end, Jeter can get a few extra PAs at DH and by spelling Rodriguez and Teixeira once in a while.

there *may* be something to moving to an easier defensive position allowing your offense to improve.

If this is true, it is accurate on the average.  This leaves open the possibility that some players, adjusting for aging curves etc, will get worse while playing at an “easier” defensive position.  Playing LF at Yankee stadium entails covering a lot of real estate.  If Jeter doesn’t have the quickness to react to a ground ball up the middle, I’d imagine that his ability to get a jump on a ball to the gap would be similar.  So, even if the above theory is true on the average, there may be reason to believe that it may not hold true for Jeter.

Reading and reacting to ground balls from 120 feet away and fly balls from 280 feet away have pretty much nothing to do with each other.

Exactly the same, no.  Related, yes.  A quick first step isn’t dependant on how close/far the ball is away when it starts traveling in your direction.

Exactly the same, no.  Related, yes.  A quick first step isn’t dependant on how close/far the ball is away when it starts traveling in your direction.

I think the relationship is smaller than you may think.  Speed can make up a lot for missing a quick first-step.  And I don’t care if he’s a “good” defensive LF, I just care if he’s around average.

So, even if the above theory is true on the average, there may be reason to believe that it may not hold true for Jeter.

Of course.  But generally speaking - if the sample is large enough anyway - if on average players improve when moving, then more players improved than declined.  There’s only one way to find out, and if Jeter in his next 2 years is -10 and -15 defensively, I’d rather find that out than if he would be -20 in 2011, wouldn’t you?

A quick first step isn’t dependant on how close/far the ball is away when it starts traveling in your direction.

sure, but i bet the percentage of fly balls a slow first step keeps you from turning into outs is much, much lower than the percentage of groundballs a slow first step keeps you from turning into outs.

Ripken played 86, 83, and 128 games in his age 38-40 seasons. I can see that happening with Jeter, once he’s passed 3,000 (which is about 2-3 years away).

A quick first step isn’t dependant on how close/far the ball is away when it starts traveling in your direction.

IMO, a quick first step is incredibly over-rated WRT to defensive prowess.  In his prime, Jeter had a quick enough first step to be an excellent base stealer, but it did him little good on defense.  That’s because a defensive player doesn’t take his first step until he reads the ball off the bat.  Now, when we see slow motion video of every player on the field reacting to a batted ball before Jeter does, do we think that means his feet aren’t quick enough, or do we think it means he takes longer to decide which way he has to go?  My vote has always been for the latter.  And like yup said, that first split second impacts your ability to make a play on a fly ball a helluva lot less often that it matters on a ground ball.

“when we see slow motion video of every player on the field reacting to a batted ball before Jeter does”

Really?  Ouch.

Mostly unrelated, but Fangraphs just put out their NYY Yankees Prospect Mine.  Mostly guys we know, with the only one above Low A that doesn’t get a lot of discussion here being Bradley Suttle.  No shortstops…

And like yup said, that first split second impacts your ability to make a play on a fly ball a helluva lot less often that it matters on a ground ball.

Yes, in the OF speed will compensate for a slower first step.  My point was that a position change isn’t magic pixie dust to make everyone perform better.

And I don’t care if he’s a “good” defensive LF, I just care if he’s around average.

I would compare vs. internal replacement level for both SS and LF and pick the best outcome.  If you move Jeter to LF because he projects to be average, but the SS replacement is terrible, it might not be the best move.  A substandard Jeter at SS and a better LF might be the better combo.  It all depends on who the alternatives are per position.

I am not concerned about Jeter. This would be a compelling conversation if there were any better options out there. Shortstops are not what they were even 2-3 years ago. If Jeter is the second best in the AL, why is that not good enough? Who cares what he is getting paid. He puts asses in the seats and that is what matters for the team as a business.

He will be slightly above average or average for the next two years which is fine. If he has not earned the benefit of the doubt to do what is best for the team after that time period then shame on you.

“slow motion video of every player on the field reacting to a batted ball before Jeter does”

got a link?

“If he has not earned the benefit of the doubt to do what is best for the team after that time period then shame on you. “

What, now?

I’ve never been much of a fanboy, since baseball is a business and the owners and players treat it (and us) as such.  That said, if the Yanks can find a better replacement for Jeter, and Jeter won’t perform better than anyone else on the roster at another position, then I could care less if they don’t resign him.  I could care less if he gets his 3,000th hit in a Royal uniform vice pinstripes and wouldn’t care if he finished his career somewhere else.

The good thing is, the Yanks still have a couple of years before that time comes.  I’m assuming Cashman and Oppenheimer are smart enough to take the long view and are looking at all the possible scenarios once Jeter hits free agency (or just before he does) and will take the one that best suits the team.

“If he has not earned the benefit of the doubt to do what is best for the team”

Thing is, I’m a little skeptical of that based on the past.

“This would be a compelling conversation if there were any better options out there.”

I don’t expect the organization to broadcast this (just the opposite), but I hope that they are thinking about the issue and making whatever preparations are possible.

Jeter projects to be a little better offensively and a little worse defensively, which seems to me to indicate he should be about the same value, or a fraction of a win less.  Last year he was worth 3.7 WAR, and this year he’s going to be worth…1.8 WAR?

I’ll second this puzzlement.  It looks like for 2008 replacement level for SS was ~49 BR/650 PA for the AL SS and 55 for the NL ones, but then in the 2009 projections it’s 60BR/650 PA. Any reason for the one win increase in replacementlevel?

Woohoo! It’s on boys! Sox-Yanks, tonight! Ortiz! Ellsbury! Chris Carter! Er… nevermind.

Will our long national nightmare of spring training ever end?

And like yup said, that first split second impacts your ability to make a play on a fly ball a helluva lot less often that it matters on a ground ball.

Yes but that assumes Jeter both takes good routes to the ball and maintains his speed in his late 30’s.  Since he has zero experience tracking fly balls in the outfield I’m not sure you can assume that.

The time to move Jeter to CF was 3 years ago.  Never sign Damon, Jeter to CF, A-Rod to SS.

It looks like for 2008 replacement level for SS was ~49 BR/650 PA for the AL SS and 55 for the NL ones, but then in the 2009 projections it’s 60BR/650 PA. Any reason for the one win increase in replacementlevel?

2008 was an unusually poor season for AL SS.  In the interest of consistency of scale I probably should be position-adjusting 2008 vs. projected 2009 replacement level. 

Basically, 2008 Jeter is being compared to a replacement level for a line of .266/.319/.375 and 2009 Jeter is being compared to a replacement level for a line of .271/.324/.392 (weighted average of 2005-2008).  He’s also projected for about 20 fewer plate appearances which knocks his counting stats down a touch.

CS: Ellsbury (Burnett/Posada).

Exciting.

got a link?

Nah, I don’t save stuff like that.  I bet Larry has one, though.

Yes but that assumes Jeter both takes good routes to the ball and maintains his speed in his late 30’s.  Since he has zero experience tracking fly balls in the outfield I’m not sure you can assume that.

The time to move Jeter to CF was 3 years ago.

I didn’t say move him to CF.  In fact, I specifically said that was a bad idea at this point.  What I did say is that I see no reason why he couldn’t be a passable corner OFer.  Baseball history is filled with aging sluggers who managed to play an OF corner adequately enough into their late thirties.  You may have noticed that there are a fair number of relatively slow runners who play OF in the major leagues.  A player like Jeter wouldn’t need to maintain his prime speed to be able to hold down left or right.

Never sign Damon, Jeter to CF, A-Rod to SS.

Even if that could have worked in 2006, you’d be in desperate need of a SS right now.  “34 year old coming off hip surgery playing SS” isn’t really any smarter sounding than “35 year old who never played the outfield moving to CF.”

Hey, remember when Jose Tabata was in the Yankee organization?
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4013539

Tabata’s wife is TWENTY-THREE years older than him?!? What the hell? Is that a typo?

That’s the perfect example of a gold-digger in Pittsburgh: a 43 year old hooking onto the 20 year old third-best prospect in the Pirates organization. Well done, ma’am

That’s the perfect example of a gold-digging baby stealer.  It sounds so creepy and sordid, from top to bottom.  Yech!

Basically, 2008 Jeter is being compared to a replacement level for a line of .266/.319/.375 and 2009 Jeter is being compared to a replacement level for a line of .271/.324/.392 (weighted average of 2005-2008). 

Thanks SG.  Hopefully Jeter rebounds as much as the rest of the SS in the league are able to.  Though it really doesn’t matter for the Yankees next year how Jeter compares to a replacement SS; I don’t think anyone will care if Jeter misses his projection by 10 BR, if he ends up at +4 because all other SS did badly.

I would compare vs. internal replacement level for both SS and LF and pick the best outcome.

Oh of course, certainly.  I think at this point in the conversation we were discussing where we could move Jeter IF they had a suitable replacement at SS.

I don’t expect the organization to broadcast this (just the opposite), but I hope that they are thinking about the issue and making whatever preparations are possible.

Each of the last 2 years they’ve drafted very toolsy SS, both still in high-school.  Neither has done much at this point and are probably 3-4 years out, at best.  But I think they ARE trying to build some in-house replacments into the system, and probably crossing their fingers that Jeter can play at an acceptable level until those replacements are ready.  If not, they should have PLENTY of young pitching to trade for a SS, either as a stop-gap or long term replacement.

I happen to think that Jeter will have a fine year, so long as he doesn’t get whacked with too many fastballs on his hands and wrists.  I’m calling a .315/.375/.435 line for him with 20 or so SB and average - defense.  We all counted him pretty much for dead after 2004 and 2005 - years he was bugged by nagging hurts - and he came back with quite a spike.  Obviously he won’t be as good as he was in 2006, but I don’t think it’s time to put the fork in him yet.

The fact that Daniel Cabrera is now in the NL will help Jeter all by itself. Cabrera hits him on the hand 2-3 times per year typically.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=bryant_howard&id=4013015

I’m sorry but I have to ask, does anyone give two shits about Reggie Jackson? I’m sorry but Reggie simply isn’t a Yankee legend. In my experience most Yankee fans don’t really care about him. They care more about the lifers than a guy who drifted in and out 5 years later. What’s worse is he doesn’t realize he is mostly irrelevant in their minds an thinks it is his place to have “the talk.” No one cares Reggie.

I was actually going to link to that article as well, but for a different reason.  To continue my (pointless) crusade against crappy “journalism”.  You may notice this from the article:

With Rodriguez—and the bizarre, unrelenting dramas that seem to always accompany him—gone at least until near the All-Star break, Teixeira is the power bat in the Yankees’ lineup.

Huh?  They’re predicting ARod back in May, quite possibly early May.  How is that anywhere NEAR the All-Star break?

No one cares Reggie.

I think he’s more relevent than you’re giving him credit for.  I’m young enough that the first time I saw him play was in an Angels uniform, but old enough that I remember in the early eighties my dad complaining about Winfield, in part because he wasn’t Reggie.  And my dad still remembers Reggie, as much for his swagger off the field as performance on it.  Perhaps not as reverently as he remembers Mantle and Berra and Ford, but I think there’s a couple of generations for whom Reggie is still REGGIE.

And if he helps in the slightest way, even by giving some of the players a guy to talk to who they feel “gets” it, he can hang around the Yankees all he wants.

Can I unread that article now somehow?

Perhaps not as reverently as he remembers Mantle and Berra and Ford

Or Mattingly, or Jeter, or Mo…

He’s not some gold standard.  He may be fondly remembered and as important as anyone else on the Yankees in that short span but we are over 30 years past that short span and there have been more than a few Yankees to capture New York’s fancy since then.

Can we avoid any further posts ever again suggesting Jeter to CF? Please? With those old legs, it is, now, a dumb idea. Five years ago, you had a point.

My fear is that Jeter is one of those guys whose career will fall off the face of a cliff. Except that he may have one real good season left in him. My fear about that is Jeter will re-emerge in 2010, just in time for slobbering front office people/owners to tender him a new deal. Imagine! Just as his ten year deal expires the ‘old’ Jeter returns.

I do hope that I am wrong about this.

Can we avoid any further posts ever again suggesting Jeter to CF? Please? With those old legs, it is, now, a dumb idea. Five years ago, you had a point.

well said. If Jeter is moving its to a corner OF position. It seems pretty clear that the Yankees are focused on have good to premier defense in CF and in all likely hood Jeter, in his mid 30s playing OF for the first time in who knows how long, is not that.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9379176/Notes:-Yanks-appear-open-to-moving-Cabrera?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=49

Looks like the Yankees are shopping Melky.  Hopefully a Damon, Swisher, Nady OF is in the works.

“Can we avoid any further posts ever again suggesting” etc.

I don’t see anyone on the thread suggesting.

“Hopefully a Damon, Swisher, Nady OF is in the works.”

How does moving Cabrera put Swisher in CF?

From [59]‘s link: “Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson and DeWayne Wise have been competing for the White Sox’s centerfield job. Cabrera almost certainly would hold greater appeal.”

Chicago has three guys worse than Melky in the mix?  Whatever happened to replacement level?

How does moving Cabrera put Swisher in CF?

Swisher doesn’t have to be in CF (or at least not everyday), I just hope those 3 are our regular outfielders.  Hopefully the Yankees realized that would be the best thing. 

Given that, Garder has better tools for a bench player than Melky.  By all accounts he plays better defense and would have more value as a pinch runner.  On top of that, Melky probably has better trade value so if neither won the CF job Melky is a better choice to trade.

“Chicago has three guys worse than Melky in the mix?  Whatever happened to replacement level?”

Kenny Williams happened.

[61] I still don’t see where “realized” comes from. 

Also you have Melky as apparent third on our depth chart for CF but with more trade value?  Besides being younger and having more experience (and service time [and I assume higher salary]), what does he bring, relatively?

I still don’t see where “realized” comes from.

I guess I don’t understand what you are asking.  Are you asking why now or what happened?  Maybe after finding out he was going to be a bench player Swisher went to Girardi/Cashman and said even though he was against it in the past that he would now be OK playing CF.

Also you have Melky as apparent third on our depth chart for CF but with more trade value?  Besides being younger and having more experience (and service time [and I assume higher salary]), what does he bring, relatively?

I have Melky 2nd on our depth chart for 4th OFer behind Gardner.  I still have him ahead of Gardner on the CF depth chart.

What Melky brings to the table is 2006 and 2007.  Even if you think Gardner has more potential he hasn’t proven he can play at that level yet.  Older and less proven aren’t small things.

‘I still don’t see where “realized” comes from.’

“I guess I don’t understand what you are asking.”

Ok, this is no longer interesting to anyone, but one writes “I hope the Yankees realize” or “I hope the Yankees have realized” to get the subjunctive here.  You are phrasing things as if Cabrera trade rumors make your desired scenario more likely, which I think doesn’t make sense since Swisher is 3rd on the actual depth chart at best and maybe even as low as 5th behind Damon and A-Jax.

Can we avoid any further posts ever again suggesting Jeter to CF? Please? With those old legs, it is, now, a dumb idea. Five years ago, you had a point.

Time sure flies.  It seems like it’s been at least five years that I’ve been trying to tell people it was too late to think about moving Jeter to CF.  IOW, five years ago, you’d have had a point three years ago.  Or something like that.

My fear is that Jeter is one of those guys whose career will fall off the face of a cliff. Except that he may have one real good season left in him. My fear about that is Jeter will re-emerge in 2010, just in time for slobbering front office people/owners to tender him a new deal. Imagine! Just as his ten year deal expires the ‘old’ Jeter returns.

Are you contractually obligated to be this pessimistic all the time?    Why not at least hope that he has that really good season this year and then slips just enough in 2010 so that the inevitable new contract will be for the smallest number of years and dollars possible.  But make no mistake, the new contract absolutely is inevitable.  And like someone upthread suggested, it will probably represent a very sound business decision, even if it’s a poor baseball decision.

I do hope that I am wrong about this.

About what?  The good year?  The return of the Jeter of yore?  The new deal?  If it’s all of the above, then chances are excellent that you’re wrong about at least some of it.

“it will probably represent a very sound business decision, even if it’s a poor baseball decision”

Not even necessarily self-consistent, if the FO plows the net money gained back into the team - on King Felix’s salary or whatever.

Ok, this is no longer interesting to anyone, but one writes “I hope the Yankees realize” or “I hope the Yankees have realized” to get the subjunctive here.

Ahh, gotcha.  If you are going to correct my spelling and grammar you are going to have another full time job on your hands.  It doesn’t bother me at all (in fact I actually appreciate learning) but I just wanted to let you know what you are getting yourself into.

You are phrasing things as if Cabrera trade rumors make your desired scenario more likely, which I think doesn’t make sense since Swisher is 3rd on the actual depth chart at best and maybe even as low as 5th behind Damon and A-Jax.

Yeah it’s definitely a bit of wishful thinking on my part but I don’t think Swisher is 3rd or 5th on the CF depth chart.  I’d put him second behind Damon.  My depth chart…

1) Damon
2) Swisher
3) Melky
4) Gardner
5) Ajax

By 2010, with a broken economy, there will be no business sense in bringing Jeter back. Now that’s optimism!

“If you are going to correct my spelling and grammar”

I have no intention to, and see no need to - just in this one case there was a collision between what you said, what you meant, what you wanted, and what I heard.

“I don’t think Swisher is 3rd or 5th”

Well, maybe he shouldn’t be, but just look at the time in ST.