Well, now I’m just being a pest.  Goodnight, yo.

75 throws by Posado sounds encouraging.

Kei Igawa: the ultimate buzz kill. Once his name was thrown in the mix, you knew these discussions were going to flat-line. It’s probably for the best, though. I just couldn’t stand seeing “Big Game Shades” pitching meaningless games for the Brewers. The world can’t be that cruel.

arragh, I could care less about Cameron but I seriously hope we get Teix.

If we have Teix, I could care less if Damon turn every single into doubles due to his arm. or Melky hitting .500 OPS.

FWIW . Bill James projection

Cabrera: .276/.337/.393

Cameron: .237/.325/.434

maybe at the very least these trade talks put the fear of God in Melky.  Wisconsin just doesn’t have the same nightlife as NYC

Bill James projection

Cabrera: .276/.337/.393

Bill’s research assistants need to put down the crack pipe.

I guess this whole thing just isn’t that big a story, and we’ve probably already wasted a whole lot more key strokes than it deserves.  Cameron would have been an adequate stop gap, and losing Melky isn’t likely to bite you in the ass.  But there remain numerous cromulent ways for the Yankees to embiggen themselves further.

cromulent

Made my morning.

i will take the under on that Melky projection.

Hey, Kat O’Brien’s really cute.  (I hope she doesn’t grow a Fasano).

I’m feeling glum that the Cameron thing is slipping away.  Assuming Igawa completely turned Melvin off, I wonder if/hope that this is salvageable with some other non-elite prospect.

I was struck by this assertion from O’Brien:

It is unlikely the Yankees will jump into the Teixeira bidding unless they move salary and/or go cheap with the No. 5 spot in the rotation.

Is the desire for Pettitte or some other veteran as 5th starter really standing in the way of a concerted push on Teixeira?  If so, uh, please just pencil in Hughes/IPK and sign Tex.  I’d gladly walk away from Cameron and his $10m if that makes a difference in the budget too.

Melvin said one reason the Brewers initially had interest in possibly trading Cameron was to create payroll flexibility (perhaps for Sabathia). They no longer have that need, lowering the Brewers’ desire for such a move.

Weren’t the Cameron talks going on well after Sabathia had bolted from Mil?

But there remain numerous cromulent ways for the Yankees to embiggen themselves further.

And they could still get better, too.

i will take the under on that Melky projection.

You flipped a coin and it came up tails?  Honestly, that’s it with Melky.  I think he’s shown he *can* surpass that (2006, certain periods in 2007/2008).  He’s also shown he can fail fantastically to approach that.  If the Yankees had the 2007 offense they could take the chance the coin came up heads…2008 offense they really can’t.

Is the desire for Pettitte or some other veteran as 5th starter really standing in the way of a concerted push on Teixeira?

Doubt it.

Weren’t the Cameron talks going on well after Sabathia had bolted from Mil?

I think payroll was one reason.  Getting younger I think is another.  I’d hazard that if they were paying CC, payroll was a bigger reason than getting younger.  Now getting younger is the bigger reason, so they want more young “proven” talent.

Made my morning.

You should have been around last night.

The whole thing means nothing.
As we’ve said here, Cashman’s under no pressure to do this quickly.
Melvin might actually think that the break in communications means it’s over - or he might be playing a press game, as the rather unconvincing notion that they’ve grown eager to pay an old guy’s salary so as to lose more elegantly now that CC’s gone (as far as we know, I believe, there were no Cameron negotiations until CC was gone, or pretty close to it).
Really, this means nothing.  It could be off (for reasons we don’t know); it could also happen at any time.

The problem isn’t that I’ll take the under on Melky, It’s that I don’t have any hope that Cameron will noticeably exceed his projection.  And the projection just isn’t that good, and he’s 37.

I just hope Cashman will upgrade the offense and is certainly not a lot to ask.

Is the desire for Pettitte or some other veteran as 5th starter really standing in the way of a concerted push on Teixeira?  If so, uh, please just pencil in Hughes/IPK and sign Tex.  I’d gladly walk away from Cameron and his $10m if that makes a difference in the budget too.

i don’t think so.  i think this is just an assumption on the part of the media.

it may make sense for Manny, since we are talking about a 2-3 year committment (in theory). 

but i just don’t see how a Teixeira decision hinges on Pettitte and Cameron.  they could just backload the deal to work around that if they needed to. 

the bottom line is that if you give Teixeira $180M/8 years or whatever, once Pettitte and Cameron go away, you still have a gigantic $158M/7 year contract on your books.

i’m sorry, but how does Bill James deal with the ethical issue of being objective vs. being on a team’s payroll.  He’s projecting the stats of someone his company is in direct competition with.

maybe he inflates Melky’s projection so that the Yankees stupidly overvalue him.

Or maybe he deflates IPK’s projection so that the Yankees trade him.

etc etc.  I don’t think James would actually do that, but there’s the appearence of that being a problem.

Why is everyone so convinced that the Brewers are bad (e.g. comment #14 above)?

They won 90 games last year despite Gallardo missing the season, their best players are entering the prime of their career, they have a ton of money to spend (the Gagne and Sabathia money), and all they lost (so far, anyway) is a guy who pitched in 17 games.

i don’t think so.  i think this is just an assumption on the part of the media.

It would appear so.  Kind of a silly assumption unless they know something we don’t.

I’m very down on the Manny idea.  Too much mishigas for the money.  Anything more than 2 years, IMO, is definitely a deal-breaker for me.  I prefer Dunn, especially given the fact that he appears to be marked down, and the commitment there looks like it won’t go beyond 4 years.  You still have the logjam problem wherein you probably need to try to dump Matsui, but you have that with Manny too.

maybe he inflates Melky’s projection so that the Yankees stupidly overvalue him.

I’ve got to think the Yankees aren’t really looking at the Bill James projections with all that much seriousness.

all they lost (so far, anyway) is a guy who pitched in 17 games.

Good point, but Sheets also most likely will be gone, although that isn’t certain.  And when the team is 14-3 in those 17 games, that one pitcher made a pretty big difference.  I’m not saying they’ll be bad, but they’re going to have a tough time making the playoffs again.

I just hope Cashman will upgrade the offense and is certainly not a lot to ask.

While Cameron is an upgrade over Melky, I can’t help but think that a guy who strikes out in 28% of his plate appearances isn’t the right kind of upgrade, particularly after the trade for Swisher, who strikes out in 22% of his plate appearances.

Then again, the alternatives in CF seem to be the infamous Jack and Shit.

I think it’s just Shit at this point: I hear Omar Minaya snagged Jack on a minor-league deal.

Good point, but Sheets also most likely will be gone, although that isn’t certain.  And when the team is 14-3 in those 17 games, that one pitcher made a pretty big difference.  I’m not saying they’ll be bad, but they’re going to have a tough time making the playoffs again.

Yes, but they got pretty much nothing from Gallardo and Capuano last year.  If they get a full season from Gallardo and half a season from Capuano, they’re not very far from where they were last season.

Then again, the alternatives in CF seem to be the infamous Jack and Shit.

Or Rocco Baldelli. Or Jim Edmonds. I wonder how much different Edmonds projects that Cameron next year.. but ESPN ZR stats all read .000 for some reason.

I think it’s just Shit at this point: I hear Omar Minaya snagged Jack on a minor-league deal.

Funny!

maybe he inflates Melky’s projection so that the Yankees stupidly overvalue him.
...
I’ve got to think the Yankees aren’t really looking at the Bill James projections with all that much seriousness.

As DaPuj says.  Also, I’d have to imagine if you are a subscriber to the Bill James site, he probably fully describes his method for coming up with the projections, in such a way that (if you were of the mind) you could compute them yourself.  He’s usually pretty good about publishing all of that stuff.  He may allow himself some wiggle-room for “personal adjustment”...

Even if Rocco was really misdiagnosed and is feeling better, there’s still no way he’s a full-time CFer, at least at this point.  He might make great sense as a platoon partner/part time DH, however.  I’m all for Rocco, as long as he’s not counted upon to play a lot.

Just say no to Jim Edmonds.

He might make great sense as a platoon partner/part time DH, however.  I’m all for Rocco, as long as he’s not counted upon to play a lot.

Well, we’ve got a left handed CF with some great tools (speed and probably plus defense), a left handed LFer that probably needs to DH and/or take a day per week. Admittedly, I’m entering Nick Johnson mancrush territory with Baldelli.

...take a day off per week..

I wonder how much different Edmonds projects that Cameron next year.

Looks like he projects to a wOBA of about .350 (avg of Bill James and Marcels).  Fielding though UZR has him at -10 last year, after -2 the prior year.  He’s older so should be worse, but the drop was a lot last year so he might be a little better…so he’ll be the same?  I seem to remember the last ratings on arms at HBT, he was above average, but only a little.

BJ and Marcels almost exactly agree that Cameron should be a .334 wOBA, a little worse than Edmunds (BJ says Edumns is better, Marcels says Cameron).  UZR says Cameron was almost 10 runs better than average last year; though the prior year he was almost 7 runs below (and the year before that +6?).  So either we should be scared of an odd year and he’s -10, or somewhere in between.  I think SG had him at +2, so that’s probably fair.

SO…Edmunds is 12 runs worse on D, maybe 6 runs better on O?  Cameron is worth about a half-win more.  You can then argue if that half win is worth holding on to Melky/Igawa and the $$‘s saved…

SO…Edmunds is 12 runs worse on D, maybe 6 runs better on O?

At that point, it probably just makes sense to live with Damon 5 days a week and Gardner for the other day and then go buy yourself a LFer.

Dang j, what is it with you and injured/sick men? You’re like Dr. Cameron from House…

It appears the folks at NoMaas have officially gone off their collective rocker.

At that point, it probably just makes sense to live with Damon 5 days a week and Gardner for the other day and then go buy yourself a LFer.

I suppose it depends on the cost of the left-fielder, and how good the left-fielder is, yes?  E.g. if they could get Crawford for Igawa straight-up, it’s a no brainer for several reasons.  If they could get Manny for 5/120 I’d much rather trade for Cameron.

I think the fact that Cashman is haggling about how much of IGAWA’s contract they’ll pick up is indicative of how much of an upgrade he thinks Cameron is.  If he can find an actual left-fielder - as opposed to a DH who plays left in the NL - I’m sure he will.

Dang j, what is it with you and injured/sick men? You’re like Dr. Cameron from House…

Did you catch my House reference in the previous post? Give House an hour with Baldelli and we’ve got ourselves a CFer.

Seriously though, I think that the point where you can tell the team is put together well is when they have the roster and payroll flexibility to throw a few million at a guy like Baldelli, or trade a prospect who is low on our depth chart but wouldn’t be on someone else’s depth chart for a guy like Nick Johnson, and hope that your investment pays off.

Plus, it’s certainly to watch something like that happen - no? Strawberry’s 1998 was great to watch.. I think SG has that as currently the best DH season for a Yankee ever.

..it’s certainly *fun* to watch..

It appears the folks at NoMaas have officially gone off their collective rocker.

I think they feel obliged to put SOMETHING up on the front page most every day.  Most days, that’s garbage.  Once in a while they have a well researched and thought-out article.  Even if I don’t agree with the conclusion, it’s still worth reading.  They have some nice interviews too.  But yeah, the “good” on that site is more and more becoming a rarity.

Ok, here’s another idea:

Remember Craig Wilson? I thought he was a great pick up when we got him from Pittsburgh in 2006, but he didn’t really pan out. He ended up in Atlanta the next year and was eventually released. He battled shoulder problem between 2007 and 2008. He spent time with the White Sox and back with the Pirates, before eventually landing in Seattle. He ended 2008 by putting up a .953 OPS with Seattle’s AAA club.

My personal opinion.. whatever was wrong with Wilson, health-wise, has been corrected and he’s back to mashing, especially LHP. His stats are intriguing if you consider the injury as the problem. Check this out:

2001 - 146 OPS+ in 183 PA’s
2002 - 107 OPS+ in 424 PA’s
2003 - 123 OPS+ in 358 PA’s
2004 - 119 OPS+ in 644 PA’s
2005 - 113 OPS+ in 238 PA’s

His fielding numbers in the OF don’t inspire, but at 1B by UZR/150 he’s been a plus defender every year except 2006 (which again, is when I think he was hurt):

2002 - 4.6
2003 - 0.8
2004 - 4.2
2005 - 9.0
2006 - -7.8
2007 - 11.6

... over 1964 innings.

I’m not sure what Seattle has planned for 1B next year - they spent most of 2008 with either Richie Sexson or Miguel Cairo, so Wilson may very well be in their plans, but he’s an interesting guy. 110-115 OPS+ and plus defense at first base allow Swisher to move to LF or RF and makes Nady available for trade for a CF upgrade.

i don’t think Wilson would be very interested in coming back. all the reports were about how miserable he was in NY and just sulked the whole time.

j, that seems like the best idea yet.
I remember thinking similar things about Wilson’s pick-up and subsequent not panning out.
Given cost & reasonable expectation, I’d have to prefer this to Cameron, the current set-up, Baldelli, etc.  I think I’d even like it.

In the interest of full disclosure, Wilson put up an OPS+ of 94 in 2006 with NYY/PIT over 395 PA’s and 50 in 2007 with ATL over 69 PA’s. He didn’t get any MLB action in 2008.

Yup, that could be.  Of course, his performance might have contributed to his state of mind, but that might not mitigate any dislike it created for playing here.

Didn’t Torre have all sorts of issues deploying Wilson?  I may be mixing things up in my head, bu I seem to recall that being a problem.

Didn’t Torre have all sorts of issues deploying Wilson?  I may be mixing things up in my head, bu I seem to recall that being a problem.

Yeah, I think that was one of those guys where Cashman got him, and it seemed like Torre was into, “Great!  There’s your spot on the bench!”  Someone’s going to contradict me with actual facts, but that’s my memory of it.

I suppose if Wilson was miserable it could have been *because* of Torre, and he wouldn’t mind a second-shot.  IIRC, he *can* catch as well.  I don’t know if I’d want to pencil him in as the starter, but depending on how things shake out he may be a good bet as a backup 1B/OF/C/DH.

i don’t think Wilson would be very interested in coming back. all the reports were about how miserable he was in NY and just sulked the whole time.

Well, that’s the thing. Since we had him, he’s been in Atlanta, Chicago, Pittsburgh again, and now Seattle. Obviously we’ve evolved to letting the numbers speak for themselves, but 4 teams in 2 years is certainly a red flag.

Didn’t Torre have all sorts of issues deploying Wilson?

I remember he didn’t get regular playing time.. he didn’t really have a defined role. Miguel Cairo definitely ended up at 1B when I thought Wilson should have been there. Of course, we’ve got a new manager now, so maybe that’s something.

he *can* catch as well.

Fangraphs has him as not having touched a catcher’s mitt since 2004. Emergency catcher might not be out of the realm of possibility.

“Fangraphs has him as not having touched a catcher’s mitt since 2004. Emergency catcher might not be out of the realm of possibility.”

If they catch him some that will change quickly.

I don’t know if I’d want to pencil him in as the starter,

Yeah, it’s obviously a stretch to think he will be an impact starter for anyone next year, but what drives me nuts is how Cashman can pick up retreads like Eric Milton, Victor Zambrano, Sidney Ponson, Scott Erickson, etc.. but we can’t find room for guys like Craig Wilson.

I suppose Ben Broussard did end up in SWB last year, but he doesn’t have near the upside.

AJ’s wife is hot.  Go AJ.

Yeah, it’s obviously a stretch to think he will be an impact starter for anyone next year, but what drives me nuts is how Cashman can pick up retreads like Eric Milton, Victor Zambrano, Sidney Ponson, Scott Erickson, etc.. but we can’t find room for guys like Craig Wilson.

i honestly don’t see what one has to do with the other.

i honestly don’t see what one has to do with the other.

What do you mean? Cashman has shown that he’s a subscriber to a certain philosophy: pick up scrap heap guys and give them a chance to pan out. With the financial muscle they have, the Yankees should be doing that. But it seems that they do it more with starting pitchers than they do with position players.

Just watched the press conference. They looked good. CC has a laugh like Eddie Murphy and AJ was pretty funny. When asked how he would deal with the side show of New York media he looked at the tribal tattoo on his hand and says “I think I’ll fit right in”

I saw CC has #52 didn’t catch what AJ was wearing.

34

At that point, it probably just makes sense to live with Damon 5 days a week and Gardner for the other day and then go buy yourself a LFer.

If you’re living with Damon in CF, there are a couple of perfectly acceptable LF on the roster already, and you should just go buy yourself a 1B.

Anyway, some folks think the question is not so much whether the Yankees can live with Damon in CF five days a week, but rather whether Damon can survive five days of CF a week.  Those folks may have a point.

j,

You’re confusing me.  How does Cashman picking up Craig Wilson provide evidence in support of a criticism of Cashman for not picking up guys like Craig Wilson?

What do you mean? Cashman has shown that he’s a subscriber to a certain philosophy: pick up scrap heap guys and give them a chance to pan out. With the financial muscle they have, the Yankees should be doing that. But it seems that they do it more with starting pitchers than they do with position players.

i mean that in any given year, your major league team needs what, 20-25 pitchers?  how many 1Bman do you need, maybe 2?

signing Craig Wilson would directly impact someone they may want to get ABs, Juan Miranda for example.  but with a pitcher, there will almost always be room for them to pitch somewhere in your system without making a significant impact on anyone else’s development.

and the Yankees have picked plenty of position players off the scrap heap:  Olerud, Bellhorn, Sexson come to mind.  Aaron Guiel, Terrance Long, Jason Lane, Carlos Pena (ironic, i know), Josh Phelps, etc.

Where IS Aaron Guiel these days?  I had a soft spot for him, dunno why…

I think actually that when Cash picked up Wilson to play some 1b, Torre fell in love with playing Andy Phillips at 1B, despite the fact that Phillips hadn’t hit for a month.

Then, the following June, Cash called up Phillips to play some 1b, and Torre fell in love with playing Cairo at 1b, despite the fact that Cairo hadn’t hit for a month and 19 years.

How does Cashman picking up Craig Wilson provide evidence in support of a criticism of Cashman for not picking up guys like Craig Wilson?

I’m referring to not picking him the 2nd time.. somewhere between NYY and SEA, considering he’s playing in AAA.

how many 1Bman do you need, maybe 2?

Yes 2, but how long is the list of 1B that the Yankees have used in the last 4 seasons? Giambi, Cairo, Phillips, Phelps, Cairo, Sexson, Ensberg, Duncan, Mientkiewicz, Betemit, Miranda.. I’ll probably missing one or two.

Your point about starters vs position players is valid, but particularly with 1B, I think the depth chart necessitates a move like this. If they were scrap heaping CFers or C who were blocking actual prospects like Jackson, Montero, Romine, etc, then it’s not a good strategy, I don’t think. It’s particularly even more confusing when you know they have know 1B depth in the minors, and guys that Cashman was at some point interested in, particularly Wilson and Phelps, are showing something to somebody in AAA somewhere.

Just to beat this horse so it’s totally dead, Phelps is another good example. .941 OPS in ~ 500 PA’s with STL in AAA. It would be nice to at least have that depth as part of the conversation with something we can do. When the first Phelps trained pulled into the station, it was as a Rule 5 draftee, so admittedly, the roster flexibility issue had the odds stacked against him.

I think actually that when Cash picked up Wilson to play some 1b, Torre fell in love with playing Andy Phillips at 1B, despite the fact that Phillips hadn’t hit for a month.

Something like this also happened with Carlos Pena, no? And the consensus is that what likely happened was that Cashman promised Pena to let him seek fame and fortune elsewhere if he wasn’t going to end up with big club in NY. 

Heck, even that situation makes stuff like this all the more confusing. Cashman even now has experience with a situation where he likes a retread guy as a cheap solution to a position player problem, but for whatever reason (Torre), it doesn’t work out. The guy moves on and eventually reaches his ceiling. Now, I’m not equating Phelps or Wilson with Pena, but it seems like at least the lesson should have been learned.

I’m referring to not picking him the 2nd time.. somewhere between NYY and SEA, considering he’s playing in AAA.

Is the complaint really that Craig Wilson isn’t in the mix at 1B for the 2009 Yankees, when the last time he has an OPS+ north of 100 was in 2005?

Olerud, Bellhorn, Sexson come to mind

And Ben Broussard…

how long is the list of 1B that the Yankees have used in the last 4 seasons? Giambi, Cairo, Phillips, Phelps, Cairo, Sexson, Ensberg, Duncan, Mientkiewicz, Betemit, Miranda.

Don’t forget Craig Wilson.

Don’t forget Craig Wilson.

And Aaron Guiel.

Didn’t Sheff make an appearance there for a game or two, as well?

In the playoffs, no less.

I’m referring to not picking him the 2nd time.. somewhere between NYY and SEA, considering he’s playing in AAA.

OK.  Between NYY and SEA:

November 1, 2006: Granted Free Agency.

January 18, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Atlanta Braves.

May 17, 2007: Released by the Atlanta Braves.

May 28, 2007: Signed as a Free Agent with the Chicago White Sox.

October 29, 2007: Granted Free Agency.

February 8, 2008: Signed as a Free Agent with the Cincinnati Reds.

February 22, 2008: Released by the Cincinnati Reds.

April 8, 2008: Signed as a Free Agent with the Pittsburgh Pirates.

July 10, 2008: Traded by the Pittsburgh Pirates to the Seattle Mariners for ptbnl.

The Braves paid him $2M, and released him after he hit .172 in 24 games.  The White Sox picked him up and he put up a .537 OPS in AAA.  So they let him go and the Reds took a flyer but released him during ST.  He went back to the Pirates, who traded him to Seattle.  It was only when he got to Tacoma that he started to show anything again.  So when was Cashman supposed to give Wilson his second shot?

It was only when he got to Tacoma that he started to show anything again.

Which should remind us all: Never get involved in a land war in Asia, and never take nice offensive stats from the PCL seriously.

Something like this also happened with Carlos Pena, no?

Not quite.  Pena never made it to the Bronx in 2006, so I don’t know if we can pin that one on Torre.  He hit .260/.370/.454 in Columbus.

So when was Cashman supposed to give Wilson his second shot?

I made a plug for Wilson last off season. His nose dive offensively was pretty weird, and there was a report that it was related to a shoulder injury. So using the BR transaction history, I’d say somewhere between November 08 and April 08.

Let me see if I can find the article.

Here’s a good article on it:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08100/871549-63.stm

I didn’t realize that he failed a physical with the Reds, so obviously it’s not fair to put the blame on Cashman considering those circumstances.

And according to his wikipedia page, he’s currently a free agent, but there’s no reference. BR doesn’t have that in his transaction history, so I’m not sure if it’s accurate. If that’s the case (him being a FA), can you really make an argument for not taking a chance on him now?

November 08

November 07 is what I meant

Not quite.

Not quite, yes.. but something *like* it happened. Around the time Pena was signed to play in AAA, Torre fell in love with ______ and Pena had no chance.

Phelps is also a bit different.  He actually got some PT in NY, appearing in 34 of the team’s first 65 games before they gave up offered him back to the O’s (who passed).  Now, I’m not saying that 88 PA is a big sample or anything, but he was signed to be the righty half of a platoon, so how many ABs can you realisitically expect in a little more than a third of a season?  He put up an OPS+ of 83 with the Yankees, which isn’t going to cut it at 1B, even for the other half of a Doug Mientkiewicz platoon.  He went ballistic when he got to Pittsburgh, but then they turned around and released him and signed Mientkiewicz anyway.

I’d say somewhere between November 08 and April 08.

So AFTER he hit .124 with the Braves and AFTER he had a .537 OPS in AAA for the White Sox? Then he failed a physical. Seems we should be giving Cashman credit for staying away from Wilson in the 2007-08 offseason.

Phelps is also different in that he was thought to be, and was eventually revealed to be, a butcher in the field. Wilson seems to have at least some indication of being an actual solution at 1B instead of a band-aid.

Then he failed a physical. Seems we should be giving Cashman credit for staying away from Wilson in the 2007-08 offseason.

I didn’t realize he failed a physical.. it’s a few comments down. It seems like he’s a FA now after possibly putting it back together in the PCL.

If that’s the case (him being a FA), can you really make an argument for not taking a chance on him now?

Several.  Some of them may even be good

Honestly, if they sign Wilson it’s going to be to a minor-league deal, to play in AAA.  They still don’t know how OF/1B/DH (positions Wilson would play) are setting up in the majors OR AAA.  Why would the Yanks sign him now when in January they may release him anyway?  Why would he sign for that same reason?  I suppose get back to Wilson in late January, when we KNOW if there’s a need for him.

Oh, and as to why you might not want him at 1B in AAA…eventually, you’re going to have to give Juan Miranda a full season against lefties to see what he can do.

I suppose get back to Wilson in late January, when we KNOW if there’s a need for him.

Yes, definitely.

Oh, and as to why you might not want him at 1B in AAA…eventually, you’re going to have to give Juan Miranda a full season against lefties to see what he can do.

I would argue that you can accomplish this by sending Ben Broussard packing and working Wilson into his spot (Do they DH in SWB?)

Going off what Chad Jennings has on his site, the depth chart is Miranda, Eric Duncan, Chris Malec, and a whole lot of nothing all the way down.

BR doesn’t have that in his transaction history, so I’m not sure if it’s accurate.

I don’t think that necessarily means anything.  They just may not have updated the pages with all of this off-season’s transactions.  They don’t list Giambi and Abreu as having been granted free agency, for instance.

Not quite, yes.. but something *like* it happened. Around the time Pena was signed to play in AAA, Torre fell in love with ______ and Pena had no chance.

I don’t agree with this interpretation.  While in the Yankee organization, Pena didn’t hit any better in AAA than Phillips had.  So then the Yankees traded for some guy named Craig Wilson.  That’s why there wasn’t a spot for Pena on the big club.  And the part about agreeing to let him go if they weren’t able to give him a major league shot by the time rosters expanded isn’t a consensus, it’s what Pena said he was told when he signed the minor league deal.

I would argue that you can accomplish this by sending Ben Broussard packing and working Wilson into his spot (Do they DH in SWB?)

Yes they DH.  I actually didn’t think Broussard was retained by the Yankees, but he could be.  Again, I think they’re trying to figure out yet who all is where, and who the “untouchables” are in the minors.  I use that term not so much that they’re special, but guys like E. Duncan I think the Yankees figure as long as he’s “free”, they’re going to hold on to him, and not dump him for a player like Wilson.  Once that’s done they’ll decide if there is room (e.g. at DH) for a player like Wilson.

While in the Yankee organization, Pena didn’t hit any better in AAA than Phillips had.

Comparing the two isn’t really fair. Pena put up a respectable yet .824 OPS in 2006, while Andy Phillips spent the entire year with the Yankees. You’re right that by the trade deadline they opted for some combination of Wilson or Guiel, but can we ever really know why Pena didn’t get a chance before they tried either of these guys?  Pena started that year in AAA with the Yankees, and combined with his MLB experience, it seems like logic would have dictated at least getting a shot.

Unless Cashman was sure that Torre would sit him on the bench. In which case, as you said, Cashman and Pena had an agreement where, if he knew it wasn’t going to happen, he would give him his walking papers.

Comparing the two isn’t really fair.

To clarify, I think the reason that it’s not fair to compare the two is because at that point in their respective careers, Phillips hadn’t shown himself to be anymore than a AAAA player with a chance of making it in the bigs, while Pena had already had 3 solid seasons with the Tigers with the bat. UZR had him as pretty rough with the glove in those seasons, which I also recall was the problem with Pena - all hit, no glove. Maybe his percieved one dimensional value was why he didn’t get a shot, or because Torre wouldn’t play him.. who knows.

I forget how we ended up talking about Pena.

Pena started that year in AAA with the Yankees, and combined with his MLB experience, it seems like logic would have dictated at least getting a shot.

Not for nothing - and it was a few years ago so I may not be remembering correctly - but didn’t the Yankees (like they seem to most years recently) have a need for a RH bat at that time?  Sheffield was out, IIRC. 

Also, Wilson’s .819 OPS in AAAA was probably better than Pena’s .824 in AAA, plus Wilson WAS more versatile defensively.  Come to think of it, so was Phillips (who also bats righty).

I forget how we ended up talking about Pena.

Alex, the question is, “Who are scrap-heap players for 1B, who didn’t get a full shot for the Yankees during the Joe Torre era?”

Also, Wilson’s .819 OPS in AAAA was probably better than Pena’s .824 in AAA, plus Wilson WAS more versatile defensively.  Come to think of it, so was Phillips (who also bats righty).

I’m not sure if they had what we’ve now come to expect issues with LHP in 2006. I think that was the year that they couldn’t hit pitchers they never faced before.

Wilson was certainly attractive and a good move, but it just seems weird that that considering all it took was a roster move, they didn’t at least try Pena out. Phillips certainly wasn’t setting the world on fire and Pena was already under their control.

I didn’t want to turn this into a session of blaming Cashman for not doing anything with Pena, just a mention that I hope he still has Wilson in his mind and that maybe we see him as an NRI.

I don’t get it—Craig Wilson is a solution to what problem? 

There are no positional holes in the Yankees offense right now.  There are at least 5 players (Swisher, Matsui, Damon, Melky/Gardner, Nady) for 5 slots.  It seems to me any bat you bring on has to be a real masher and not a reclamation project…or at least clearly superior to one of the players above.

I guess the Craig Wilson talk is predicated on Damon sliding over to CF, which I consider unacceptable except maybe on days when Wang pitches against the Marlins or Nationals.  I think the offensive upgrade—if there is one at all—from Melky/Gardner to Wilson is eclipsed by the defensive downgrade of Melky/Gardner to Damon.  Plus, is Wilson clearly better with the glove at 1B than Swisher?

OK, now I see this whole thread started with j saying:

he’s an interesting guy. 110-115 OPS+ and plus defense at first base allow Swisher to move to LF or RF and makes Nady available for trade for a CF upgrade.

OK, but who?  I think sometimes around here we overstate the ease of just flipping this guy or that for a decent return.

And the part about agreeing to let him go if they weren’t able to give him a major league shot by the time rosters expanded isn’t a consensus, it’s what Pena said he was told when he signed the minor league deal.

i’m pretty sure it was written into the contract he signed.  the yankees had to call him up by a certain date or he could become a FA. 

this is pretty standard in minor league contracts signed by guys who have major league experience. 

i am fairly certain Jason Lane had the same option.  he, too, left and signed with Boston.

To clarify, I think the reason that it’s not fair to compare the two is because at that point in their respective careers, Phillips hadn’t shown himself to be anymore than a AAAA player with a chance of making it in the bigs, while Pena had already had 3 solid seasons with the Tigers with the bat.

Amen to that.  I’m not right all the time—or even half the time—but look up the ‘06 comment threads…I was losing my mind trying to figure out why Pena wasn’t getting a shot.  His splits made him particularly attractive as a platoon option. 

The ill-fated Torre-Phillips romance was so frustrating and more than a little damaging to the team’s competitiveness.

I don’t get it—Craig Wilson is a solution to what problem?

For me personally, I wouldn’t mind having Wilson in AAA - with the caveats I mentioned earlier about needing to see how the whole roster is constructed first.  The problem he solves then is some depth in the minors if say Swisher gets hurt, and they don’t want to move Nady to 1B.  But I see no purpose in having him start the year on the ML roster.

just a mention that I hope he still has Wilson in his mind and that maybe we see him as an NRI.

You’re talking about a man who signed Sidney Ponson to fill a need.  Twice.  I think the only way Cashman won’t *consider* Wilson (assuming he’s even available at the time) to fill a need, is if Cashman believes there are better options.

I think sometimes around here we overstate the ease of just flipping this guy or that for a decent return.

You mean the Igawa+Matsui for Pujols deal I’ve been putting together isn’t reasonable?  Damn!  That would have fixed so many problems…

OK, but who?  I think sometimes around here we overstate the ease of just flipping this guy or that for a decent return.

Granted, but would you rather go into the trade market with Melky Cabrera and Kei Igawa or Xavier Nady?

On top of that, Wilson, because he’d be so cheap, at the very least provides some Nady insurance. There are some (Steve Goldman mentions this a lot) that aren’t convinced that Nady is even a full time player.

I think that was the year that they couldn’t hit pitchers they never faced before.

I thought this was every team, every year.

There are some (Steve Goldman mentions this a lot) that aren’t convinced that Nady is even a full time player.

there is plenty of room between “not a full time player” and “All-Star”.  and Nady fits comfortably between those two goalposts.

he’s an above average major league regular.  he’s just not a star. 

his projection for next year is somewhere around .280/.340/.470.

given his very modest salary, he’s a fairly valuable piece. 

the Phillies just won the WS with an almost exact facsimile of Nady in RF, Jason Werth.  the Rays had inferior hitters in Gross and Hinske sharing time in RF.

In addition to overstating the ease of pulling off trades, discussions like this one betray a lack of understanding of some of the subtleties of roster rules.  For example, why is Craig Wilson a free agent?  I mean, I know that a half season of mashing in the PCL doesn’t prove that he’s all better, but a team like the Mariners could at least stand to give him a long look in ST, right?  Well, I’m no expert on this stuff, but I’m pretty sure that they’d have to give him a major league contract and add him to their 40-man roster to keep him from becoming a free agent.  You can’t just stash guys like this in your system for a rainy day without spending a little bit of money and tying up a roster spot.

The ill-fated Torre-Phillips romance was so frustrating…

Forget about frustrating.  It was inexplicable.  Torre had Phillips buried so deep on the bench in 2005 that I thought Andy had molested Joe’s daughter or something.  Then in 2006 when Phillips was doing everything he could to prove that he was not a major league hitter, Torre falls in love with him.

And oh yeah by the way, if you do keep a guy like Wilson over a winter, then once you call him up to your major league team, he’s got to clear waivers if you want to send him back to the minors.  Even if he’s willing to accept the assignment.

I agree with yup.  I think it’s funny how a lot of people use “average” as a pejorative. Average is fairly valuable.

There’s also the question of how you define “average”.  Is it the average of every PA across MLB by at a given position?  If so, this skews average off to the right, as good hitters get more PA’s than poor hitters.  It also overstates average because of “superstars” or “superslackers”.  Should the average 1B line change depending on whether Albert Pujols has a 190 OPS+ or just a 150 OPS+?  How about whether Miggy Cairo puts up a 55 OPS+ in 250 PA or 50?  I’d advocate for using some sort of median-like definition for an “average player” at a position.  This would make average less dependent on the outliers, and more true to what the term should mean, in my mind.

There are some (Steve Goldman mentions this a lot) that aren’t convinced that Nady is even a full time player.

Which is exactly why—see your previous sentence—I actually don’t feel that great about going into the trade market with Nady.  Nady is what he is, and even that isn’t as good as he was last year.  Whereas I’m not entirely convinced that Melky, who won’t be 25 until late summer, can’t take his game to the next level (you likey the triple negative in that sentence?).  A smallish market team looking at salary downsizing can be sold on Melky’s value and potential. 

By your calculus, if Melky+ can get us Mike Cameron, then Nady+ should net us an all-star CF.  But that’s not the way it works.

It is pretty funny that the reports about Tex have Tex likely turning down bigger money from the small market team to take less money to play for a contender.

The bizarro CC!!

“Nady is what he is, and even that isn’t as good as he was last year.”

That’s a reason to trade him.  If one could make a consistent practice of selling high & buying significantly less high, you should be making your team better.
If you wait for Nady to regress, you have less value than you had in exchange for nothing.

“The bizarro CC!!”

CC made the playoffs with the team he ultimately left.

Is Te(i)x likely to make the playoffs with the Senators?

If you wait for Nady to regress, you have less value than you had in exchange for nothing.

Um, 230 AB’s of 105 OPS+ isn’t exactly nothing. I’m looking at Nady providing somewhere between 100 and 110 OPS+ while not being a defensive liability for 2009.  That ain’t nothing either.  Not everyone has to be traded.

Not everyone, DaPuj, of course.  And - ok, it’s not nothing.  But for purposes of building a team, you wouldn’t want to have everyone you get perform worse than they did when you got them.  The easiest way to prevent that would seem to be making a practice of buying under-market/undervalued players & selling over-market/overvalued players vis-a-vis the players you don’t intend to keep long-term.  Best to trade those guys whenever they’re overmarket/overvalued, since you may well never see that again.  Even if you get guys who are merely appropriately valued, you’ve won.  Over time, your pool of value increases.
Unless we see Nady as part of the “core” of the team, which I presume we do not.

By your calculus, if Melky+ can get us Mike Cameron, then Nady+ should net us an all-star CF.  But that’s not the way it works.

Well, I wouldn’t go that far .. I didn’t realize my comments translated to calculus. All I’m saying is that ceiling for a NRI to Craig Wilson, if he pans out, is that you have some better trade chips. You could just as easily to decide to move Swisher, or some combination of Swisher/Nady and Melky.