http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3890785

Oh god, this is gonna explode.

Man, this team is never dull.

Oh god, this is gonna explode.

With good reason.  We now know that 3 of the era’s best players (Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod) probably used steroids at some point. 

It honestly makes no difference to me.  But I know others will have a field day with A-Rod on this.

I know feeling sorry for the guy is probably a bizarre instinct, but jesus the guy just can’t catch a PR break.

It’s nice that in the ESPN report they show A-Rod’s “decline” from 2002-2004 when he supposedly stopped taking steroids because of random testing and penalties.  They conveniently leave off his absolutely monster 2005 and 2007 seasons, presumably steroid-free.

Here’s my question.  If you’re the union, and you consent to testing on the assumption that it’s anonymous, why would you allow the keeping of a list of of the players names linked to the results?  If the purpose was only to collect population data, there’s no need for the links.

Not that I’m a steroids apologist.

My first reaction was at least I wouldn’t have to keep hearing about the Torre book.

Here’s my question: where are the other 103 names?  Isn’t it likely there’s a high profile player from another team on there?  ::cough-cough::Ortiz::cough-cough:::  Yet we only get A-Rod’s name….

If Ortiz was among the name, I still wouldn’t care. For that matter, considering all that was going on around in 2003, if we want to keep delving into that year….

A-roid?  Ha!

i can’t take seriously anything Selena Roberts says.  Her credibility as a reporter is nonexistent, given her role in promoting the fake rape allegations against the Duke lacrosse players. for example:

http://www.uslaw.com/library/Criminal_Law/Selena_Roberts_Still_Misleading.php?item=83364

well, i’m sure the Peter Abrahams and Mike Lupicas of the world will omit from their upcoming screeds on this topic.

Sam Borden already has a post up defending her.

an interesting thing is the notion of “4 independent sources”.  now this is a list that only certain people in the government would have access to.  how independent can they be of each other? 

now they all might be telling the truth. they all might not. heck, they might not exist, Roberts might be making them up. but i doubt that they can possibly be “independent” of each other.

I haven’t bothered to read all of the articles.  I’m just going to be lazy about this.  So I’ll just ask for someone to do my research:

Which side on the Bonds trial leaked this stuff and why?

DISCLAIMER:  NONE OF THIS EXHONERATES A-ROD OR IS MEANT TO EXCUSE HIM.  IF HE IS INDEED GUILTY, HE IS AN A-HOLE.

THAT SAID….the fact that he was the only named leaked out of 104 people, in what was an ANONYMOUS test, is complete and utter bullshit and it is absolutely sickening how no one seems to care about this lack of ethics or justice.  it’s insane how there is one set of standards for this guy and another set for everyone else.  just insane and totally and completely wrong.

BUT HE HAS STILL DONE A TON OF HARM TO THE TEAM’S CHANCES THIS SEASON, AND THAT IS INEXCUSABLE.

What Yup said. Ha!

RE: Ms. Roberts, face made for a radio interview comes to mind. Nutra System as well.

This one is going to sting…

[16] Ha!

Good day for McGwire.  Bad day for everybody else.

Go easy on the caps, yo.

This seems important:

http://yankees.lhblogs.com/2009/02/07/two-days-of-silence/

Her story is that she found out while researching him for a book, which I guess would explain why it’s only his name that got leaked. Still bullshit and I agree with yup in #14.

Are there any lawyers here? Can someone explain if SI/Roberts are breaking any laws if this was supposed to be confidential?

And what does “confidential” mean in this case, exactly? MLB and the union made a confidential agreement, and someone broke it? Or was the government involved?

So 104 players out of how many tested / identification rate = ?  Re [14], I’d like to know that number before declaring A-Rod a mild curse word.  Also I don’t see how something dumb he may have done intentionally in ‘03 can be held against him in the context of the ‘09 campaign for another team.

BUT HE HAS STILL DONE A TON OF HARM TO THE TEAM’S CHANCES THIS SEASON

Please to explain.

RE 24 Do you really need an explination? You know what a head case Aroid is, this could destroy his season if he chooses to be a pussy about it.

So if he chooses to ignore the fifth-graders and RS fans who call him “Aroid”, he won’t have done a ton of harm by his ‘03 actions (if any)?

The most important question, via a LoHud comment:

“If A-Rod really did took “roids” then why he still can’t hit in the postseason during the last 4 years?”

I think that guy is my local Mensa chapter president.

“did took” is a nice touch.

I like that the local spell-check thinks “blah” and “foo” and “foobar” are words but not “antidisestablishmentarianism”.

Re [25]:  Oh. 

And this explains the Pecota projection, too.

If you’re going to leak one name leak all the fucking names for crying out loud.

[31] It might be risky career-wise to leak the names of popular, league-approved players.

Though I imagine the one name will lower the barrier for the others to zero in time.

If you’re going to leak one name leak all the fucking names for crying out loud.

Seconded.  It’s absurd.

Are there any lawyers here? Can someone explain if SI/Roberts are breaking any laws if this was supposed to be confidential?

I’m pretty sure a journalist isn’t breaking any law by disclosing information that a court has sealed, but the person that discloses it to the reporter is most certainly violating the gag order.  One of the reasons that the sources are anonymous.  Honestly, I have a hard time believing that she found four people with first-hand knowledge of the list that all were willing to violate the court order, especially after this amount of time.

Joba: “Physically, you’re not going to do anything differently”

Is that true?  I thought the prep work for starting and relieving was different.

[34] Well, it certainly confirms, along with her admission that she found this out while researching her book, that Roberts targeted A-Rod. You do have to wonder how she got those 4 sources to risk criminal accusations themselves. No matter how guilty Rodriguez is, everything about how this has been revealed stinks to high heaven as well…

I thought the prep work for starting and relieving was different.

I thought the prep work was the same up until spring training games started, after that it obviously dovetails significantly.

Since they can’t actually ever prove this (well, I say that now), I really think the only place this hurts A-Rod is in the media. While the media already does not like him, what this really does is affect his Hall of Fame chances (Olney seems to think he’ll have a hard time getting in now - I sincerely doubt that).

I mean, fan-wise, what, the Boston fans are NOW going to boo A-Rod? Gimme a break.

Not to mention that post-Mitchell Report, where it was clear that whatever team had a guy who named names would have a bunch of names on the list, there isn’t a fan out there who can get “high and mighty” over steroids.

The only people who CAN get “high and mighty” are the sportswriters, because that’s what they do, get high and mighty over stuff.

So yeah, A-Rod will be in for a tough time from writers from now until eternity, and may affect his chances of being a Hall of Famer, but otherwise, I don’t think this will have an impact (of course, with the great impact of the media, that “otherwise” is a bit like “But how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln?”).

I can’t wait to see some meaningless Congressional hearing on A-Rod rather than important issues, like the fact that federal agents are leaking sealed documents… or, you know, the economy, Iraq, health care

Seriously, Donald Fehr needs to lose his job, and any federal employees who disclosed this stuff should be indicted.

If you’re the union, and you consent to testing on the assumption that it’s anonymous, why would you allow the keeping of a list of of the players names linked to the results?

The samples were supposed to be destroyed within sixty days of completion of the survey testing.  Same for the lists of ID codes.  The lab that MLB contracted with did not destroy the stuff, and when the feds investigating Bonds found out, they subpoenaed the stuff.  MLB and the MLBPA went to court to quash the subpoena, so the feds raided the lab and seized the stuff.  Now this part I might be remembering wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the court did in fact quash the subpoena, which means that the raid was in direct violation of a court order.  Your tax dollars at work.

Anyway, it really is way past time for somebody to leak the whole list.  I don’t really care whose names are on it, but I’m quite confident that there are at least two or three “did it the right way” guys on there.  It’s time to explode this freakin’ pretense once and for all.

While I am not for leaking the whole list (as it seems a bit of a “103 other wrongs doesn’t make a right”), yeah, it would certainly have been nicer if we had a “everything’s anonymous or nothing’s anonymous” approach to these things.

Because while I said that post-Mitchell Report no fan can be “high and mighty” about steroids, as the Report seemed to indicate that basically every team had a group of players doing steroids, there likely ARE fans out there who probably think they can be are. They can’t, but they sure act like they can.

Lord knows that if you talked to me 10 years ago, I was probably under the naive delusion that there were only a relatively small amount of players “juicing.” Now, it’s evident that every club house had a large portion of players who were.

That’s probably my biggest complaint about Olney’s piece (which is ESPN’s main piece on the issue). He makes this big point about how writers should not have leaped to refer to A-Rod as a “non-tainted” player in 2007, but then he continues with the notion of A-Rod being a “tainted” player, when the “real” story was that at the extremely LOW end of the spectrum a tenth of the league was “tainted”! So if you do a story about how this one guy is “tainted,” basically all you are doing is feeding into the same naivete he criticizes, that somehow the other, non-implicated players are “good,” simply because they have not been “outted” (which is only because they are not famous enough for a reporter to bribe/cajole classified information from people in an effort to “get” them).

<i>The samples were supposed to be destroyed within sixty days of completion of the survey testing.  Same for the lists of ID codes.  The lab that MLB contracted with did not destroy the stuff, and when the feds investigating Bonds found out, they subpoenaed the stuff.<i>

That’s not entirely accurate. The lab didn’t fail to do its job; the MLBPA had a 60 day period after testing but before the subpoena to fill out the paperwork requesting destruction and for some unknown reason failed to do so. From Howard Bryant on ESPN.com:

<i>We know that the players’ union had an opportunity to destroy the 2003 survey testing, but inexplicably, did not. The union could have negotiated with the federal government to have investigators subpoena only the 2003 test samples for BALCO-involved players such as Bonds and Jason Giambi. But because the union appears to have overplayed its hand, the government succeeded in acquiring all of the 2003 samples. <i>

Whoever leaked the info to SI broke the law, but the Players Union is guily of sheer ineptitude in this regard, and someone should be held accountable.

At least Rob Neyer had good things to say:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3891343&name=Neyer_Rob

What’s Bryant’s source for that?  If the testing was supposed to be anonymous and the records were supposed to be destroyed, then requiring some additional paperwork seems kind of ridiculous.  One might even say contrived.

The part about negotiating is made up out of whole cloth.  It’s an assumption on Bryant’s (and other journalists’) part that the feds would have negotiated, but that the MLBPA overplayed its hand by going to court to quash the subpoena.  Well, like I said, I’m pretty sure that the feds either conducted the raid after the subpoena was quashed or didn’t wait for the court to rule before carrying out the raid.  Does that sound like someone who is willing to negotiate?

That was just supposed to be a close parentesis.  Not a winky thingy.

Are there any lawyers here? Can someone explain if SI/Roberts are breaking any laws if this was supposed to be confidential?

I’m pretty sure a journalist isn’t breaking any law by disclosing information that a court has sealed, but the person that discloses it to the reporter is most certainly violating the gag order.  One of the reasons that the sources are anonymous.  Honestly, I have a hard time believing that she found four people with first-hand knowledge of the list that all were willing to violate the court order, especially after this amount of time.

While I did just graduate from Law School, I can hardly consider myself a lawyer.  But I’d have to agree.  There is no case against the journalist since she wasn’t apart of the confidentiality agreement.
But if she obtained the information illegally, it could make for a different situation.

Yeah, the only real law-breaking is by the leakers, who we’ll likely never learn the identities of, which is why you’ll continue to see stuff like this in the future.

The “problem” is that no one is bribing/cajoling people into leaking them info about Pete Incaviglia’s test results, just the biggest names in baseball, most of whom have some connection with the Yankees.

By the by, I spelled Incaviglia’s name right on my first try!

So 104 players out of how many tested / identification rate = ?

I wondered this too, so when I saw you ask I checked, the best I could find described the test as everybody + 240 random retests.

That’s 30*25=750?  So 104 is about 14% assuming 0 false negatives or positives.  It’s pretty f’ing shameful if Arod was intentionally cheating 6/7 of other players, 99/100 of whom have nothing like his talent.

This is shaping up to be one of the worst post-seasons I’ve experienced as a Yankees fan after heading towards being one of the best.

Do you ever sit there and try to focus your mojo?  I love stastics, am skeptical of clutchiness and have a hard time understanding people who think there’s something to debate about evolution.  Nonetheless, I try to focus my mojo.  For example, I look at a television screen, knees bent, with my hand pointed up like a shark fin and quietly chant to Mo: “destroy him”, because on some level, I guess I believe I’m helping him.  Recently, I had been focusing my baseball-related personal mojo on thinking about general health for the Yankees, as hope for full seasons of optimized Joba, Jorge, Hideki and Johnny seem well suited to a potentially great season.  But now, I am focusing my mojo on A-Rod just destroying the AL, him tearing the league apart with his bare fists and crushing the opposition.  The absurdity of the continued steroid hand-wringing in the media is almost beyond me, until I remember that something like 1/5th of Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth.  Destroy them.  Destroy them.

Best post, of all time.

I sat here nodding.

Destroy them. Destroy them.

For example, I look at a television screen, knees bent, with my hand pointed up like a shark fin and quietly chant to Mo: “destroy him”

They have medication for your condition you know

But if ARod puts up another career year I’ll direct my wife to you when she asks what I’m doing in front of the TV!

David- You are the effin Man.
I feel a lot less strange about cranking up Enter Sandman every time Mo takes the mound.  I’m not going to mention the strategic placement of Mantle and Munson figurines upon the coffee (ALE) table when trailing after 7. That kind of stuff is just wierd.

Sad. Now we’ll never know how much of it was pure class, versus the drugs. I’m guessing he’d be about as good without them, but who knows? Yanks will have to thicken their skin quickly this spring. It might motivate the team, or be nothing, though I suspect it will be a real drag on Alex.

Isn’t it likely there’s a high profile player from another team on there?  ::cough-cough::Ortiz::cough-cough:::

Were you asleep in Evidence class Jonathan? Wishing doesn’t make it so. Other than statements like this from a few haterz, there is no suggestion *anywhere* that Papi is anything less than 100% natural. Nice try.

Just read the Times. If I were him I’d retire, move to Spain and study art or something. I can’t imagine he’ll ever be happy as a baseball player, there is no chance of peace for him, and he doesn’t have the makeup to endure. Or maybe if he just walked away for a couple years, people might remember how impressive it was to watch him play baseball.

Also, I’m not concern-trolling; I know Sox fans are howling about this, but it seems awfully simplistic to say this is good for us. I doubt players in Boston or anywhere are celebrating.

Destroy them.  Destroy them.

Rivera, what is best in life?

Mo: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women.

I’ve got to try this shark fin thing out.

Sad. Now we’ll never know how much of it was pure class, versus the drugs

Dude, you’ll never know this about any player.  Was it the greenies, or class?  Was it creatine, or class?  Did the weed calm his jangled nerves?  Come on.  You know for sure that Ortiz has never done anything?  What exactly IS performance enhancement?  Do we really need to have the discussion about whatever “purity” that ever existed in baseball being false nostalgia?  The tut-tutting is beyond ridiculous.  Kindly climb down off your high horse or ride it into the sunset.

Just read the Times.

Because the media drumbeat about the outrage of steroids has really killed mlb’s fanbase, hasn’t it?  The media - and you should know this as a Boston fan - is so out of step with baseball fans as to be laughable.

Do we really need to have the discussion about whatever “purity” that ever existed in baseball being false nostalgia?

No. but demanding that everyone have the same opinion as you seems kind of pointless. You don’t think PEDs changed the game in any way that should concern fans? Really?

I do agree with you about other players, even Papi—unless you can look into people’s souls, or unless they have confessed, you will NEVER really know. And this is why drugs are bad for sports. That said, Papi wasn’t mentioned in Canseco’s book, which so far is the only document of at least some of who-did-what. so there are two classes: guys who totally roided, and guys about whom you can’t be sure.

As for fans… I don’t think the media swarm impact is great, but only because there’s been a response and it’s likely that PED use is on the decline. I think fans have lost all appreciation for the recent mini-longball era—you can’t give away those McGwire versus Sosa videos. And I fucking hate Selig and the unions for abetting all of this, I place more blame on them than any individual player. But baseball in 2009 is well worth watching. Just my $.02 of course.

You don’t think PEDs changed the game in any way that should concern fans? Really?

This conversation needs to go back to amphetamines, first and foremost, if you’re going to have it at all.  And you need to talk then about ANY supplement that helps increase strength / recovery, be it andro, creatine, whatever.  My point is that the game is so tainted with this stuff, and has been for decades.  Nobody seems to care that their heroes of yesteryear were hopped up on speed.  I know it doesn’t really bother me.  So long as guys are working out with any kind of supplement, I have a hard time getting worked up: it becomes a question of scale rather than kind, and that scale is rather debatable in its own right.

And this is why drugs are bad for sports.

In a perfect world, guys wouldn’t be allowed to use ANYTHING at all: no caffeine, alcohol, amphetamines, exercise supplements, painkillers, or prescribed psychotropic drugs.  Until we find ourselves in this fantasy, it’s the hand-wringing and self-righteousness that grates.

Leaking would be fine if it were for the good of the game and certainly the story about Orza is the most pertinent though it will get the least press but if the leak were for the good of the game as opposed to say to hurt Arod then we’d see a lot more names, 103 more, on the list.  Ms Roberts did nothing wrong ethically or legally.

After reading [61], I think Ms. Roberts did something wrong ethically (assuming she had access to the other names) if she allowed herself to be a tool of the powers that be to go after Alex. Or if she had a personal agenda against Alex. Or in that she sees the best way to grow her fame or cash-pile is by going after Alex.

I’m not clear how true any of the above is, especially as I’m not too interested in the story.

But ethics, especially for sports journalists, is how one values it personally.

I’m disappointed in ARod and simultaneously disgusted with the entire sport. What a buzzkill a week before spring training starts. Damn t.

... it.

This conversation needs to go back to amphetamines

There’s a big issue, as you suggest, in where to draw the line. IMHO the effect of roids and creatine is so substantial that it has to be over the line, whereas I’m not so sure about amphetamines, etc. In the endurance sports world, this question gets even more ridiculous: pasta is a performance enhancer…

Well, it seems like a rational line to draw is that anything that has even a reasonable chance of causing either short-term or long-term harm should be banned.  You can’t just ban stuff that enhances performance, because stuff like new surgeries, training methods, and medical research are all performance enhancing, but if it doesn’t endanger players, there’s no real standing for a ban.  But when it does endanger health, you can’t allow some players to gain an advantage over others who don’t want to harm their health.

“but if it doesn’t endanger players, there’s no real standing for a ban”

I was thinking about this earlier in the context of a poem by Robert Haas about the Vietnam era in which someone suggests an easy way to end the war - if a few thousand people cut off their left pinkie fingers and sent them to the White House, the administration would give in.  What if something like that improved performance?  Ok, that’s crazy - but then again, baseball is itself bad for the health - I bet a lot of players have permanent multiple joint damage.  And I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that some catchers have some brain damage due to multiple mini-concussions - and surely many don’t go on to have careers as pianists or violinists due to bad fingers and hands.

I think Ms. Roberts did something wrong ethically (assuming she had access to the other names) if she allowed herself to be a tool of the powers that be to go after Alex. Or if she had a personal agenda against Alex.

She basically told Bob Costas that she could have had access to other names, but only wanted to know about Rodriguez, because she’s working on a book about him.  So yeah, she has an agenda and admitted as much.

Other than statements like this from a few haterz, there is no suggestion *anywhere* that Papi is anything less than 100% natural.

Until some hack decides to turn a quick buck writing a myth-busting book about him.

That’s 30*25=750?  So 104 is about 14% assuming 0 false negatives or positives.

Unless it’s 30*40=1200.  Don’t know if testing was limited to active rosters.  At any rate, my personal opinion, based on absolutely no objective evidence whatsoever, is that at least 50% of MLB players in the late 90s and early 200s were using, and probably 25% still are despite the anti-doping program.  I’m also pretty sure that Canseco didn’t introduce steroids to MLB, and that there were more than a few users in the 70s and 80s.  I’d be willing to bet a six-pack that there is already at least one juicer in the Hall of Fame.

“there is no suggestion *anywhere* that Papi is anything less than 100% natural”

Pretty sure I’ve seen questions over the years about his career path, which to my mind was a priori about as good evidence as Canseco saying something.

“at least 50% of MLB players” ... “probably 25% still”

I wonder if such a large effect and such a large shift would be evident to someone modelling the spread in performance over the era, assuming steroids really do enhance performance integrated over several years.  SG?