Since talking about A-Rod alternatives seems to be the topic de jour (de mois?)... someone in the last thread mentioned trying to trade the Dodgers of Andy LaRoche since Nomar is blocking him, and here’s what I posted:

Why not Nomar for the Yankees?  He’s a righty and even in a terrible 2007 he hit .303/.342/.383 against lefties.  Just the year before that he hit .341/.420/.600 vs lefties.

He already has experience playing 1B and 3B.  Between Duncan, Giambi, Betemit, and Nomar, you pretty much have all the “handedness” that you need between first and third base.  He has one more year on his current contract for about $9MM or $10MM, small change for the Yankees but important to the Dodgers if they’re gonig to try and make a run at A-Rod.  Considering the Dodgers have Loney at 1B and LaRoche at 3B, doesn’t this make too much sense for everyone?

“Either way, the Yankees bidding on him only serves to drive up his price.”

Isn’t that a good thing from the Yankees’ POV, as long as they don’t sign him?  I think it’s trivially true if he goes to (and would have in any case gone to) team x - I’m not sure about the question of _where_ we want him to sign.

“Du mois” (also, “du jour”).

On ESPN, Gammons has blogged that the Marlins have announced Miguel Cabrera is available in a trade. 

The Yankees, who may lose Rodriguez, will certainly be in, but they would have to include Phil Hughes, which is unlikely. The Red Sox, who may lose Lowell, will likely be in as well, but they will have to start with right-hander Clay Buchholz. The Dodgers, who need a middle-of-the-order bat, would seem to have the most to offer with left-hander Clayton Kershaw, left-hander Scott Elbert, right-handed reliever Jonathan Meloan and third baseman Andy LaRoche. The Angels also have a cornucopia of prospects, if they are not in the A-Rod sweepstakes.

IMO, if Hughes is the cornerstone of that trade, then it’s pointless.  You fill the hole at 3B for your projected No. 2 or No. 3 starter.

“Du mois” (also, “du jour”).

Pardon my French.

The Dodgers and Angels are much better fits for Cabrera.  Now that Torre will be running the team, he may actually be an excellent fit for Miguel’s testy personality.  Personally, I’d like to see the Yanks make a play for Andy LaRoche.  I’m not really sure what the Dodgers’ needs are though - although I’m fairly sure they have enough pitching so there would be no need to offer Hughes or Joba.  The Dodgers also have plenty of outfielders, so they wouldn’t ask for Austin Jackson or Tabata.  I’m fairly sure they need relievers but the Yanks don’t have many of those.  If they’d like to take Farnsworth as part of a deal, so much the better.  Cashman should offer to pay 90% of his salary or all of it if he part of a deal for a young guy.  Colletti signed Juan Pierre for five years, so we already know he’s dumb.  Cashman really should laser in on that.

IMO, if Hughes is the cornerstone of that trade, then it’s pointless.  You fill the hole at 3B for your projected No. 2 or No. 3 starter.

I don’t know, Cabrera will still only be 25 next year and in 3000+ PA’s has put up a .313/.388/.542 line (good for a 143 OPS+) and that is dragged down a little by his first two years.  The past 3 seasons he has had an OPS+ over 150.  Even if he ends up at 1B in a year or two, he’ll still be a perennial MVP candidate.  I think if it was Hughes for Cabrera straight up, the Yankees would be best served by going for it.  Cabrera has the ML track record and hitters are much safer bets than pitchers.

That’s tough.  How close are Hughes and Kennedy in the minds of other team’s scouts?  How well-regarded are Horne, Marquez, Melancon, etc.?  Would Kennedy, Horne, Marquez, and Tabata get us close?

Trading for Cabrera, or any other player who will be a free agent within the next two years, is essentially a rental for the Yankees.

I believe Cabrera is a free agent at the end of 2009, which means that the Yankees would be trading Hughes, and a couple of other prospects (at least) for two years of Cabrera before they have to resign him.

Or, they can wait for Cabrera to hit free agency and sign him with all that money that will be off the books by then.  Bonus is you also keep Hughes and whoever else that would have been in a Marlin’s uniform.

Is it worth losing Hughes and other prospects for those two years of Cabrera?

If I’m in the Yankees front office, I say no to that trade.  You have a core of young pitchers and that should be the foundation for rebuilding this team.  Don’t trade them for Cabrera, even though Cabrera may be a safer bet (performance-wise) that Hughes or Kennedy, etc.

This might mean a sub-par 2008 season, but the rewards might well be worth it: a younger core of good players in 2009, with some free agent signings rounding out the squad.

As for the Marlins putting Cabrera out there: 

Are they trying to screw A-Rod and Boras?  Surely a team that needs a 3B may think trading for Cabrera makes more financial sense than breaking the bank for A-Rod.

I’m not crazy about the idea of trading for Cabrera.  The weight issue bothers me, as does the attitude.  I don’t want to add a malcontent to this team, especially now as we move towards younger players.  I am of the mindset that favors a smart, split-conscious platoon at third and improving the offense at first base. Adam Dunn’s option for $13M was just picked up, but perhaps he can be persuaded to waive his no trade to come to the Yanks.  Surely he would cost less in terms of prospects than Miguel Cabrera.  Dunn plus an Ensberg/Betemit platoon > Cabrera plus Duncan/Philips?

Adam Dunn’s option for $13M was just picked up, but perhaps he can be persuaded to waive his no trade to come to the Yanks.

Adam Dunn is not a solution at 1B for the Yankees, or really anyone for that matter.  He didn’t play a single game at 1B in 2007, played 2 games in 2006, and 33 games in 2005.  The most games he every played at 1B in a season was 2002 (44 games).

Adam Dunn is not a solution at 1B for the Yankees, or really anyone for that matter.  He didn’t play a single game at 1B in 2007, played 2 games in 2006, and 33 games in 2005.  The most games he every played at 1B in a season was 2002 (44 games).

How does that indicate that he can’t play first base?  They had Scott Hatteberg at first last year in Cincy, and he did just fine for them—why bench him to move Dunn (and create a hole in the outfield)?

Dunn’s probably no better than Giambi with the glove, but he can hit the ball really hard.  He’d be a fine option at first.

Crowbar?

Even so, Dunn’s no-trade clause expires on June 15th unless he agrees to an extension this winter. If he doesn’t sign an extension, it would be in his best interests to waive his no-trade well before June.

How the Yankees should handle the A-Rod situation?

I think they should make a move quickly for a quality 3B. Easier said than done, of course. I realize this. And I don’t know what that move is, but perhaps then it will dawn on A-Rod and Boras that the Yankees truly are out of the running and won’t be used to artificially inflate the market for him.

Or get creative. Try to replace the offense you lose at 3B with more offense in CF or 1B.

In regards to Andy LaRoche, scouts seem to like him. And he had a nice year at Las Vegas in the PCL, but it wasn’t overwhelming and I just worry about PCL numbers, which can really be misleading. Anyone know more about him?

The Mariners are probably looking for some way to dump Sexson and his salary, so how about the Yankees look into what it would take to get Beltre and Sexson together. Beltre’s great fielding gives him a lot of value, and I really think Sexson should bounce back a little. He had a severe drop in BABIP last year with only a minor drop in LD%. It might even cost less in talent to get the two of them together than getting Beltre alone.

It probably wouldn’t take too much to get Beltre and/or Sexson, not a terrible option, especially since it brings more righties into the lineup.

Unrelated, and don’t know if anyone’s mentioned it yet, but how pumped must Scott Proctor be to hear that he may be reunited with Joe Torre?

About Dunn: I have a hard time believing a LFer can’t be taught to play 1st. Maybe a Sexson/Duncan platoon?

17 - NoMaas has that angle covered. 

Man, this sort of thing is scary…
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3090054

Can we put Joba in bubblewrap all winter?

Adam Dunn’s option for $13M was just picked up, but perhaps he can be persuaded to waive his no trade to come to the Yanks.

There it is again, that notion that teams are just lining up to trade us their stars for peanuts. I’m sure the Reds picked up Dunn’s option for a reason: they want him on the team this year.  When the trade deadline rolls around, teams make the decision whether to stay in it for the long haul or to jump ship, but not in November before the season starts.

The Yankees need to make a smart move to fill their gaps via trade or sign guys on the FA market that are actually available.

And on that note, I’ve sort of become intrigued with Andruw Jones if he could be had for 3 years or less. He certainly has the potential to be the power bat from the RH side that we need, and I’m guessing that in LF his defense would be an improvement over Damon.  Keep Matsui around for full time duties, send Damon and cash packing to a team on his NTC clause list and get whatever you get from Giambi in 08 at 1B/DH. Snatch up Morgan Ensberg for Kei Igawa, platoon him with Betemit at 3B (and stick both of them at the bottom of the line up when they play) and get to work on a bullpen, because friends, THAT’s the big problem.

for full time DH duties

j, but the Reds are A) run by idiots (Dusty Baker!?!?!?) B) need to make room for some rookie OFers and a 1st baseman.

but the Reds are A) run by idiots (Dusty Baker!?!?!?) B) need to make room for some rookie OFers and a 1st baseman.

Ok. Then why did they pick up his option? They may be run by idiots and in need of room for rookie players, but they obviously have some sort of plan that involves Dunn.

some sort of plan that involves Dunn.

... and his 136 OPS+. Something tells me he fits in somewhere for the Reds in 08.

He’d be a fine option at first.

Adam Dunn is going to be 28, has a career OPS+ of 130 and hits about 40 HR’s every year (in the NL, but still.) He’s not an option, he’s a reach. He’s the premier offensive player on the Reds.

Mike Lamb is an option. Sean Casey is an option.

What about this guy as an option at 3B, or 2B and move Cano BACK to 3B?

http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/prospects/?p=597

I believe this has been covered on previous threads, but I’ll reiterate what a lot of people think: Cano is a plus defender at 2b and it took him a while to get there.  It would be silly to make him change positions for a guy who has never played MLB, as it may very well affect him negatively on both sides of the ball.  I mean, I may be misremembering, but didn’t he only play 3b for half a season when the Yanks were trying to get the Royals interested in him?  (Beltran trade.)

No, Cano should be starting the all-star game for the AL at 2b, wearing an interlocking NY, for the next 7 years. 

(We’ll need to actually vote to get him in over Pedroia, who is short and therefore beloved by the baseball media.)

I think having Betemit at 3B will be fine for some reason.  Just keep promoting the young guns and I have plenty of confidence in the Yankees.

Meanwhile, LA fans are jumping for joy to have Torre.  Wonder if the fans will complain about him as much there as here (there was a lot of complaining about Grady Little for submitting apparently boneheaded lineups).

Scott Proctor is crying with his little girl now.  I would too if I were being stalked by Joe Torre.

It would be silly to make him change positions for a guy who has never played MLB

While I agree that this rationale is logical, what is really silly is having a certain combination of players on your roster and not putting them in a specific position on the field that gives you the best chance to win. If that situation involves Cano at 3B, I’m all for it. I would love to see him continue to set the standard at 2B, but I’d rather see the Yankees win games.

Proctor actually really likes Torre. He’s said so several times. And according to the Times today, G-Little used him even more frequently than the Torre.

move Cano BACK to 3B

It is a myth that Cano was a 3rd baseman the Yankees moved to second.  I just looked it up here and Cano has played a total of 16 games at third in the minors.  Only 6 of them since Rookie ball (where he still played more at second than any other position.  Cano always has been a second baseman.  He played a few games at third when Arizona wanted a third baseman for Randy Johnson several years back, but that’s it.

Cano has played a total of 16 games at third in the minors.

Cano always has been a second baseman.

Does not compute. 

I never said Cano was a 3B moved to 2B, just that he has some experience playing 3B.  I don’t think he’ll end up there, but it’s certainly worth Cashman’s while to make teams think that he has internal options.  Cano at 3B would not be a disaster is all I’m saying.

And for argument’s sake, Alexei Ramirez could very well be an option at 3B. The risk seems to be high, but he’d likely only cost about $5M per.

Cano has played a total of 16 games at third in the minors.

And, FWIW, Cano has played 80 games at SS in the minors as well.

Ok, now I’m just talking to myself.

In 2004, Bond’s line was .362 /.609 / .812

Irrelevant but sweet jesus.

Does not compute.

Sorry j.  Over the last year on this site when discussing ARod, it seems a lot of people have this impression that Cano was a third-baseman converted to second.  I guess it just finally snapped in me and I felt I had to respond.  And yes, I did notice that he played a number of games at SS as well; though I didn’t see any inning break-down on any of them, so it’s impossible to tell for example if he took over there in the ninth or whatever.

I don’t mind talking about moving him to third, I just want something better than a player that “might” be good at second.  If the Yankees could get Chase Utley to play second, sure, move Cano to third.  But I don’t see a player that good becoming available.  And for the record, no I’m not advocating trading for Utley; it would cost too much.

I guess it just finally snapped in me and I felt I had to respond.

No worries dude, I was kidding (I always am.) 

If the Yankees could get Chase Utley to play second, sure, move Cano to third.  But I don’t see a player that good becoming available.

Ok, sure. But what I think is going to need to happen is, they are going to need to think outside the box. Mixed in with that will be posturing that needs to happen so that, if a trade is the route they want to take, they don’t get hosed because other GM’s know Cashman doesn’t have an option.

I find it interesting that the pundits on ESPN really don’t have a strong feeling as to where A-rod may land. One still hears the Angels and I would have to say they or Boston are the leading candidates in my mind. If the Yankees do something dumb and overpay in dollars and years for Lowell, it becomes very easy to see Boston land A-rod. Lowell though is loved and fits in so nicely, had about everything go right this year and is far more likely to stay put. But wouldn’t it be a coup for years to come to uprate short. I think the temptation will be very very strong. A-rod too is at a point in his career where he wants a cannot lose situation. Like a billiard shot right in front of the hole. All the glory he’s never had in the postseason with virtually zero chance of something going wrong. With the Yanks weaker, and the difference he could make to an already strong team, the Bosox could be just that with his inclusion. I think it’s very worrisome. On one hand I like Hank Steinbrenner and Cashman saying go screw yourself A-rod. We won’t play into any scenario that gets you a richer deal. The flip side is if he gets a poorer deal, it becomes more and more feasible for the Sox to sign him. Getting even then at him would have some serious repercussions on the Yankee team success for years to come.

Abreu’s option was picked up. Sort of a no brainer unless Cashman had something clever up his sleeve.

http://blog.nj.com/ledgeryankees/2007/11/yankees_pick_up_abreus_option.html

Also, now I’m thinking of the Rivera situation. In spring training the team didn’t want to talk contract and that was when he’s a year younger and coming off an outstanding year. How is it now a better time for the Yanks to evaluate his future work? Though he was money most of the time, this year was without a doubt one of his worst in terms of ERA. How is the management in a better spot at this point to gauge his future effectiveness than last April?  Maybe it isn’t about Mo. Perhaps the answer lies in the linkage that existed with the Posada contract matter. They couldn’t treat one valuable player better than the other I guess. Hesitating on Posada too in spring training appears to be a costly calculation. In fairness one could argue they felt he would regress and they could get him cheaper in an extension. Well, the problem was and is, they had no backup plan anyway, no newer, younger player to replace him. I think it was a serious miscalculation and compounded itself with Rivera’s contract.  I would have so loved also to see what A-rod and Boras would have used as their excuse then not to talk with Cashman over the past few days. I realize someone will likely say that it’s easier to second guess at this stage, but Posada was and remains the only choice in the forseeable future so to me it was a mistake not to have this business taken care of last March. I don’t understand why the club always seems to pay out their ass on all of these extensions. They wait until they irritate the player and then pay more eventually than needed. Wang and Cano would have been locked up by now with some clubs at economical rates. I guess the Yankees need to take advantage of the smaller contracts to help offset the huge ones.

The Redsox payroll was in excess of $140 million last year, and there is no relief in sight for them until Manny comes of the books.  Sure Lowell and Schilling are free agents, but replacing them is likely to cost more not less.  I guess my point is, how will the Redsox afford AROD.  If he makes $30 million per season, he puts the sox up against the luxury tax threshold, and that’s without resigning Schilling.  Boston’s a fine city, and the Redsox are something of a brandname team, but if they don’t win the World Series every year, where’s the money gonna come from? I think that we will soon find that the Redsox have reached their financial limit.  If one of their current or future big contracts becomes devalued by injury (like Pavano or Giambi), their ability to compete with the big boys for the top freeagents will be markedly dimished.  Perhaps Nancy Drew can play that role for them…or Lowell when he signs for 4 years/55million and ages overnight.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3091277

According to ESPN, the 5/150 extension that the Yankees proposed was over $100MM short of what Boras wanted to even begin negotiating an extension.

Joeln, you have some interesting points and everything, but man, it’d be awesome if you could break those posts down into paragraphs. Just easier on the eyes. And IMO, waiting to work out new deals will hurt them with Posada (based on his career year), but not necessarily on Rivera.

I guess the Yankees need to take advantage of the smaller contracts to help offset the huge ones.

I think this is the former operating model Cashman is trying to change, but I’d bet it takes time and you have to lose the albatross contracts like Giambi and (hate to say it) Jeter at $20mm per.

the 5/150 extension that the Yankees proposed was over $100MM short of what Boras wanted to even begin negotiating

So $30mm a year wasn’t enough for Boras to even begin thinking about? He wasn’t looking for more annually, right? I take this to mean he wasn’t something in the 8 year, $240-260mm range.

Sorry Joel, didn’t mean that to sound snippy. I just lose my place reading through long blocks of copy sometimes. Maybe I’m partly dyslexic.

Anyone want to guess what contract ARod/Boras end up signing (regardless of team)?

I’m guessing 7/222.

No problem George. I just get on a roll and forget what the reader has to wade through. Thank you for the advice.

I don’t think Boston will miss out on the World Series much if they add A-rod. Really who will challenge them? Getting Beckett at such a young age was huge for them. They did exactly what most of us feared in the playoffs. They rolled over the Angels and after some adjustments rolled over Cleveland three in a row ditto the Rocks. The Yankees seemed to me to be the only team that can (could) beat them. The problem is NY couldn’t beat the other guys. Those of you who are ready to concede 2008 to retooling may be right for the longer haul, but I for one can’t look forward to being an also ran. The loss of A-rod in the lineup is just gigantic IMO.

I don’t see any serious FA or trades that can begin to fill that hole. I do believe Girardi though may make some positive difference. The idea of platoons at first or third or anywhere else really is telling. It’s reminds me of something teams do with limited resources.  You would think a good everyday firstbaseman could be found.

I don’t think that you can assume any team is going to be in the World Series every year…too many things can go wrong as the season progresses.  The Redsox were lucky to be relatively injury free this year.  What if Big Poopie’s knee gives way, or Manny strains his back taking a nap?  Also players could revert to their previous mediocrity (ie Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett).

There was a great study on the benefits of a good platoon in the hardballtimes last week.  It really changed the way I think about them. 

I am not advocating a platoon at both first and third.  I think first base should be where we target a bat.  A big bat from first base is likely to be relatively cheaper and defense is less of a premium at the position.

Here’s my utterly worthless A-Rod scenario that seared into my brain while working on the Penske file:

Yanks offer A-Rod arbitration. 

A-Rod accepts because no one will give Boras what he wants.

Yanks sign A-Rod to an extension - more “reasonable” than previously-rumored contracts because Boras has no leverage.

Yanks trade A-Rod and a mid-level prospect + cash to Marlins for Miguel Cabrera and a reliever.

Yanks get 3B they want, plus some bp help. 

Marlins get a cornerstone player who can attract fans (see Bonds).  Yanks “reasonable” contract plus cash in the deal make it easier for Miami to afford than if Miami signed A-Rod as a free agent.

This makes no sense.  But it keeps playing in my head.  I’ve seen stranger things happen (Pedro’s midget, Papelbon doing an Irish jig…)