Frankly, trading a couple of good prospects and Cano/Jackson/Melky for Santana isn’t a step in the right direction. 

Who in the world has proposed or is suggesting this?

Or maybe those slashes are “or’s” not “and’s”.  Even still doesn’t really make sense.

Beane will only deal Haren if he’s overwhelmed.  I doubt he’s aggressively shopping him.  Why would he be?  After last season, he can sell Haren very high - otherwise, he can keep him for the next three seasons.

No way can the team go with Damon in CF. Trade for a primo starter and then wreck your OF defense? Makes no sense. Get a glove, somewhere, just don’t overpay for Rowand.

Santana isn’t exactly an ‘older’ pitcher. Prime of his career more likely.

“Doesn’t the fact that Haren has a nice affordable contract mean there’s no reason for Oakland to trade him?  The reason Santana is available is because the Twins can’t afford him. “

i am not saying he is tradeable because of his contract…rather despite it. Oakland has said that they are looking to trade him (not me). Why would oakland trade him? good question maybe they saw his value skyrocket after this past season,  maybe they want to go even younger because they see a very tough angels team, who knows…

I may have mentioned this in a different post, but I really think Cashman will wait until Pettitte makes up his mind before going after Santana.  I still think they’ll trade ideas with the Twins, and if the Twins make an offer that is surprisingly low, sure, grab it.  But if Pettitte comes back, the team has enough pitching.

An excellent point, Mike K.  But I see it not as Yanks walking away from Johan ttrade if Andy returns.  Rather, using the mitigated sense of urgency as leverage.

Get a glove, somewhere, just don’t overpay for Rowand.

How about Gardner?  I don’t think he’ll hit much but there seems to be little doubt about his glove.

Not one 20-win season projection?  Or even 18? 
Crapshoot is an awesome word, btw.  Its really should be a swearword.

Who in the world has proposed or is suggesting this?

Or maybe those slashes are “or’s” not “and’s”.  Even still doesn’t really make sense.

I meant a couple of prospects and a position player like Cano/Melky/Jackson.  Plenty have stated the Twins want a young position player as well as a few prospects, including one of the Joba/Phil/Ian.

Even if this does not make sense, the Twins will ask for the moon, but settle for less.  In the meantime, they will play Boston/Mets/Yanks off each other, but mostly to get the Yanks to up their anty.

SG - I agree on Gardner.  I think he gets a long look in Spring Training regardless of Melky - Matsui and Damon are injury risks and I think Gardner will see time.  I don’t know my Boston prospects that well, and am too lazy to look up the stats, but people love Ellsbury, who looks to be a good fielding, slap-hitting burner.  I’m thinking Gardner fits the same mold.  I’m guessing that the lack of love for Gardner comes from his potential ceiling - not as high as Ellsbury’s?

Exactly.  Gardner has 80 speed and will offer plenty of CF range.  The real question, as SG has acknowledged, is to what extent he’ll hit.  He’ll certainly see plenty of fastballs, as pitchers would be crazy to walk him.

SG, there have been some rumblings from the west coast that Beane is contemplatnig a complete rebuild, and will consider trading Haren and/or Harden for prospects who will still be under his control when the A’s are good again three years from now.  So we’re not just making the Haren stuff up out of whole cloth.

SeattleSoxFan, I don’t like you and you don’t like me but let me ask you a serious question: what would the Sox fan reaction have been on a comparable message board when they traded two “blue-chip, can’t-miss” pitching prospects (Tony Armas and, yes, Carl Pavano) for a small, feeble, injury-waiting-to-happen in Pedro Martinez?  He’s 26 while Johan’s 28 but I think they are comparable.  ...

Sorry PagsRags, I’m late getting back in here. I disagree with your premise. Now, I don’t think people were dissecting prospects back in 1997 the way we do now, but while Pavano was considered a can’t miss, Armas was more the “intriguing” type. Pedro was coming off a season where he had an ERA of one-point-fricking-nine! His potential was off-the-charts exciting, and at age 26. So we can disagree, and apparently I’m not getting invited to your birthday party anytime soon, but I think you:
- overstate the value of the prospects
- overstate Pedro’s injury downside; and
- understate the value of Pedro’s upside.

The fact is, nobody can definitively assign a future value to a pitcher and say with certainty that Pitcher A is better than Pitcher B. But I think the likely interval of value between Johan and the potential trade names is much, much smaller than the interval of value between Pedro and what we gave up for him. Obviously we have hindsight to work with, but I think this is true even using what little we knew then.

BTW, have any of you guys looked at just how awful Minnesota’s lineup figures to be without Hunter?  Castillo was their best-hitting non-1B infielder, and he’s gone.  Betemit at 2B, Phillips at 3B, and Duncan at DH would be an enormous offensive upgrade for that team.  The Yanks should offer that package, and when the Twins stop laughing, say, “It’s not for Santana, it’s for Nathan and Garza.”

In retrospect, as usual others have answered this well before I could, so again I’m parroting others. Waste o time. But I’m bummed about not going to PagsRags’ birthday.

I’d personally rather trade neither [Hughes nor Cano], and risk the chance that Boston never changes it’s position with regards to Buchholz and Ellsbury, and Santana either ends up on the Dodgers, Angels…

I really, really don’t think the Sox will budge. They haven’t budged on much of anything lately.

Pags, why do you despise Pedro? Wait, never mind. I don’t want to know.

MC, valid point. Also they supposedly have lots of pitching in the minors. So you’d think they’d consider taking more position players in any Santana deal. You’d think.

SSF: My haterd for Pedro revolves around him attacking an old man and running from everyone else.  But I guess that’s better than stealing expensive equipment from your underfunded High School because you can’t wait a few weeks for your seven-figure bonus. 

You are invited to my birthday- we’ll celebrate at a Starbucks to keep you comfortable.  And if we get drinks we won’t stay out past 12:30am- I know you’re still used to Bahston hours.

Have you guys seen this?

http://www.firejoemorgan.com/2007/11/blockbuster.html

hilarious.

Pags, no problem. I’ve got two kids under 4y.o., so I’m lucky to make it past 12.30pm. Also, Starbucks coffee is mediocre, but it’ll do. As for our pitchers, I can’t explain everything they’ve done in their lives, but why don’t you just admit you hate them for their uniforms, a completely normal reaction? Cuz that’s why I like them… not because they are nice guys (or not).

According to the YES blog, the Twins are supposedly completing a trade for Delmon Young for Garza. May be BS, but if true could change dynamics re: Melky. But is Young cf material?

But is Young cf material?

ESPN is reporting that now too.  Young obviously has the arm.  He played 29 games in CF last year with a .804 ZR.  Didn’t check that against other numbers, but first inclination is that he *can* play CF, even if he isn’t best suited for it.  I don’t know if it affects Melky being in a trade, because I have no idea what the Twins plans would be for Young.

I really, really don’t think the Sox will budge. They haven’t budged on much of anything lately.

The GM has a plan, he sticks to it, and ownership backs him up. It’s a good way to operate.

But is Young cf material?

Looks like they’re also getting OF Jason Pridie in the deal, and he’s a capable guy in CF supposedly. Do the Twins now ask for two ready arms from the Yankees? And the Rays are going to be more than just a pain in the butt soon, Garza definitely has #2-3 potential, slides in nicely behind Kazmir.

Despite Hank Steinbrenner’s bloviating, there is every reason to believe that Cashman too has a plan, which he has stuck to since 2005 or so, and which ownership backs him up on.  After all, wasn’t Girardi Cashman’s choice?  Even though some are saying the Yanks will deal whatever it takes to land Santana because that’s what Hank wants - that’s pure speculation.  All evidence points to the fact that Cashman is running the show.  Hank is just the guy reporters go to because the GM is far more taciturn.

By the way, if the Twins deal with Tampa means the Yanks are no longer a match for Santana (or if they decide to keep Johan and go for broke in 2008), that’s just fine with me.

Garza to Tampa is interesting, since he was supposedly on his way to Arizona for Carlos Quentin this morning.

Even though some are saying the Yanks will deal whatever it takes to land Santana because that’s what Hank wants - that’s pure speculation.

More like pure fabrication, actually:

When asked if he would include pitching prospects in a deal for Santana, Steinbrenner hedged.

“If we make a trade for anybody, it’s going to be fair for both sides,” Steinbrenner said. “We’re not looking to rob anybody. We’re also not going to give up all of our future for one player, even if it is a pitcher.”

Definitely sounds like a guy who is hell bent on getting Santana at any cost.

Garza has so far been more hype than substance.  He’ll be 24 next season, so he still may turn out to be a solid #2 or #3 but his 1.54 WHIP in 83 innings was rather unimpressive in 2007.

Also, in terms of all the people poo-pooing the idea that Joba, Hughes and Kennedy can all turn out to be very good pitchers, as if such a thing has never, ever happened before and trotting out Pulsipher, Isringhausen and Wilson as proof, what about an earlier Mets trio of Ron Darling, Dwight Gooden and Sid Fernandez?  Or, more recently, the A’s developed Hudson, Mulder and Zito all at the same time.  Of course, no one is tabbing the Yanks’ big three for the Hall of Fame.  But those who feel all three can’t possibly reach their potential are being a bit too smug.

Actually, this is getting interesting: if Minnesota acquires a CF separately, it seriously crimps the chances of the Yankees making a deal for Santana. Which explains why the Sox are trying out Coco for Garza. And why Tampa would do a Young deal, to keep Santana away from either the Sox or Yanks (since any supposed Santana-to-Boston deal, which I think has a 0.0001% chance, would involve a CF). Do a small deal to impede or kill the big deal by your competitors. Are GMs this smart?

On the other hand, why would Tampa care?  They certainly have no chance of competing with the Yanks or Red Sox anyway as long as they intend to keep their payroll lower than one year of A-Rod’s salary.

All evidence points to the fact that Cashman is running the show.

Man, I hope you’re right. BTW, the Garza/Young trade would seem to preclude the Twins from having the luxury of sending Slowey or Perkins to the Sox for Crisp, which is a relief. If Crisp netted one of those guys, particularly Slowey, I’d puke.

And can Joba, Hughes and Kennedy all turn out to be very good? Yeah, I mean, it’s not like these guys are total unknowns. We all saw them either be just plain good or flat out brilliant at times this year…in the majors…in the crunch of a penant race. Small sample size, of course. But something to go one for sure.

Personally, I believe Hughes is going to be very tough next year if he remains healthy.  Having Eiland around to keep his mechanics in place will be a factor.  Also, he’ll regain the velocity he lost due to his hamstring problem last season.  If he begins next year throwing 95 with good command of the curve - the Yanks won’t be pining for Santana for a single moment.

Absolutely.  And there is an argument to be made that this is not entirely a bad thing.  But putting that aside, it is simply the way things are.  We can debate the merits of various scenarios all we want, but the Yankees are never going to make a conscious choice to not compete for a world championship in any given year in order to put themselves in a stronger position for subsequent years.  At some point, they will miss the playoffs (either despite their win now approach or because of it; doesn’t really matter).  That’s when they’ll rebuild; not a minute sooner.

The catch is to contend each year while not digging a hole for future success. No trade should ever be made that mortgages the future. I think that puts Cano, Hughes, and Joba off the table.

Santana is an uber-ace. Every pitcher’s stats will fluctuate from one year to another. At the age of 28 most pitchers will reach a plateau, but they can stay at that level for years. There is no reason to believe J.S. is into his declining years. Melky is a decent CF (better than Coco) but he is expendable, and he seems to be exactly what the Twins need. Andruw Jones, Aaron Rowand, or even Mike Cameron could be a suitable replacement until Austin Jackson is ready. If a better option cannot be found to using Damon in CF and Matsui in LF, that would not be a disastrous. I do not know what the Twins have in their system in terms of pitching prospects, but I would not give them more than Kennedy plus either Horne or Marquis. That is a far better package than they would get with two draft selections.

As I’ve said before, the price will go down if Cashman remains patient.  I don’t believe Boston is serious and if Johan goes to the Dodgers, who have the best position players to offer, so be it.  The one wild card is Anaheim.  If they landed Santana, their rotation, fronted by he, Lackey and Escobar would be quite formidable - although the Halos really could use another bat.

“what about an earlier Mets trio of Ron Darling, Dwight Gooden and Sid Fernandez”

Palmer, Cuellar, McNally, and Dobson

Pooh-pooh that.

If this affects the trade scenario-I’m ok with Santana staying in Minny for a year or at least through the break. This gives everybody (big 3) a chance to show some more potential. If the Twins stay in the race they will be applauded for keeping him, however if they wait until July and are 10-15 out, they will have a lot of pressure to pull off an acceptable deal. What complicates that is the haul may be mitigated by the contract situation. It would be hard to do an extension with a new team mid-year in order to get good prospects in return.

The more I think about it they may really drag this out over the winter as if he is in the fold until February they can use his status as a Twin to sell tickets, then they turn around and make the best deal based on what team has the most to offer.  The down side is that some suitors may not wait on them in the meantime as they do their winter shopping. There are always those willing to make exceptions.

1985 Champion Royals had three new pitchers. Gubizca, Saberhagen and Liebrandt. The latter was not a rookie, but a fellow who hadn’t distinguished himself to that point. Perhaps there was another one as well.

Joeln:

Danny Jackson was excellent on that team.

Wood/Prior vs. Hershiser, Fernandito, and Welch…point is this stuff can go either way- you can’t say you want the Ace at all costs and you can’t say most prospects (ex-Joba) are untouchable.

SSF: I hate all guys who wear that uniform, yes, but I hate them to different degrees.  Check that, I kind of like Ortiz, Manny, and maybe even Wakefield but I like to see them fail because it pains RedSox fans and I really despise them (more as an abstract group but often personally as well).  Among the Sawks I tend to hate are the guys who put on this blue-collar character (e.g grow some sort of stupid facial hair as soon as they join the club) in order to play to the self-righteous, hypocritical fans who want to believe they root for an underdog while overlooking the fact that they are no different from their “Evil” counterpart.  So basically Schilling, Becket, Youklis, Varitek are top of my list followed closely by Petunia and Papelbon….and throw Matsusaki in there because he best exemplifies the self-righteousness.

Here’s an idea: the hell with Santana the Twins. What could be more entertaining than those series next year in August (YS) and the season-ender (Fens) featuring at least one huge Buchholz vs. Hughes or Lester vs. Chamberlain game?

Also, does anyone else think the combination of the narrow, painted-on facial hair AND the spelling SAnTANa are a little creepy?

I just knew Satan was a southpaw.

SSF:  Yeah, it would be good stuff if Hughes/Joba and Lester/Buchholtz (a/k/a “I’m an idiot”) both became all-star tandems and had at each other for the next 8-10 years.

if Minnesota acquires a CF separately

Delmon Young is not a centerfielder.

Indeed not, but another player reportedly being included by Tampa is.

The fellow’s name is Jason Pridie.

You think the Yanks wouldn’t have been well-served by being 7-deep in the rotation last spring?

Hey, don’t get me wrong, depth in the starting rotation is important. But how important is it relative to your starting 2B who happens to be the best in the AL?  If IPK was the Yankees 4th starter, his value to them would be much different then if he was 7th on the depth chart. That’s all I’m saying. You can’t just look at their RSAA + RCAA and compare them because the Yankees have pitching and they don’t have middle infielders that can hit the ball.

and they don’t have middle infielders that can hit the ball.
... if they trade Cano.

Here, here, SSF. I raise my Rogue Dead Guy ale to that notion.

—Of course the Yankees ticket prices are tied into their payroll. Silly to believe other. While it may not be true for some other teams, it certainly is the case here.—

Can you explain this with either evidence or at the very least, a rational/logical reason?

Will ticket prices go down when the money comes off the books next year?

Why have Rutgers football tickets gone up this year even though they still pay their players nothing?

So if the Yankees get Johan, they’ll raise the ticket prices.  What you are saying is that right now, before johan, the market could support an increase in ticket prices, but the yankees just CHOOSE not to?

Ticket prices are tied to demand, which is loosely tied to talent which is loosely tied to salaries.  But salaries DO NOT drive ticket prices directly.

If Arod said “i want to stay in NY so badly, that I will play for the league minimum”, the Yankees would NOT lower ticket prices.

You think the Yanks wouldn’t have been well-served by being 7-deep in the rotation last spring?

Hey, don’t get me wrong, depth in the starting rotation is important. But how important is it relative to your starting 2B who happens to be the best in the AL?

Also, isn’t the importance of that 2B versus a middle of the rotation pitcher magnified in a playoff series?  I think that has to be a consideration (even after all caveats about the post-season being a crapshoot, etc.) for a team that already has enough talent to be a favorite to make the playoffs.

Really interesting thread, thanks.  In case A. Phil is reading I hasten to note that SAT-word “invidious” usually means something like “arousing rancor”.

Don’t forget about taciturn!

And for every Jeter that could have been traded for a Mike Mussina circa 1996 there are plenty of Ruben Rivera’s, Hensley Muelens, Sam Militellos, and even Al Leiter’s who either don’t pan out or pan out much later than you expected and usually with another organization.

and what does that have to do with Robinson Cano who is already an All-Star major leaguer??

The Yanks should offer that package, and when the Twins stop laughing, say, “It’s not for Santana, it’s for Nathan and Garza.”

and what do you offer when they are done laughing at THAT?

Come on, guys, taciturn and invidious are hardly 50 cent words, especially given the collective over-education of the folks that tend to visit this site.  It’s not as if I’m throwing around terms like sesquipedalian.

Of course, no one is tabbing the Yanks’ big three for the Hall of Fame.  But those who feel all three can’t possibly reach their potential are being a bit too smug.

holy crap, AMEN!!

not even the Hall of Fame or Zito/Hudson/Mulder, but how about McGowan, Marcum, and Litsch?  the 2007 Blue Jays.

McGowan - 169 IP of 4.08 ERA
Marcum - 159 IP of 4.13 ERA
Litsch - 111 IP of 3.81 ERA

is this so unreasonable?

i’d expect slightly more innings from the Yankee trio, but is this so hard to believe?  those guys, except for maybe McGowan, don’t have nearly the pedigree as the Yankee trio.  and they pitched in the AL East but instead of pitching to the Blue Jays, they had to pitch to the Yankees.

it’s just an example, but it’s very recent and very relevant.

SSF:  Yeah, it would be good stuff if Hughes/Joba and Lester/Buchholtz (a/k/a “I’m an idiot”) both became all-star tandems and had at each other for the next 8-10 years.

it would be even better if Joba and Hughes had Hall of Fame careers while Lester and Buchholz had long, healthy and prosperous but decidedly mediocre careers.

By the way, according to Heyman (at 6:42 PM) the Twins demand for Santana remains Melky, one of Joba/Hughes/IPK and “one or two younger prospects.”  He also seems to think Boston is serious, although Minnesota is insisting on Ellsbury and Theo apparently wants to keep him.

“Come on, guys, taciturn and invidious are hardly 50 cent words, especially given the collective over-education of the folks that tend to visit this site.”

Well, but you misused both.  You probably wanted e.g. “inapposite” and “garrulous”.

IE.. Does that word you spelled translate to Horse Loving Pedophile Who lives near Pittsburgh?
If it doesn’t my 7 year old Sony has betrayed me once again.

If you need a good chuckle read #18 and # 20.
You guys always slay.

The best part about #20 would be when Farnsworth kicked through Britton’s stomach with his mad martial arts skills. And then ate himself.

I really need to stop watching Terry Gilliam animations.

MLBTR is referencing Ken Rosenthal about the Yankees being in on Percival, and perhaps a signing is imminent.  If the deal is not too expensive, I think it’ll be good. Percival is a type B, and if he stays healthy, is a great set up guy to have in the pen. Glancing at his BR page, he looks like he was lights out for STL in 07 but for only 40 IP - I don’t know if that means he was riding the pine from injury.

I don’t know if that means he was riding the pine from injury.

Digging a little deeper, he only started pitching for STL in June, so 40 IP from June - September can certainly be considered a full load.  Here’s something else that I thought was cool, from his wikipedia page:

Percival was injured and did not pitch a game for the Tigers in their World Series runner up season of 2006. Appreciative that the players nonetheless voted him a ring and a full playoff share, he used his playoff money to buy a suite for the Tigers wives to watch the games from in 2007[6].

Here, here, SSF. I raise my Rogue Dead Guy ale to that notion.

Well played sir! I can’t finish one of those on a weeknight. Well, I can. But it’s not a great idea.

SSF.. I’d buy you a Rogue Shakespeare Stout fer yer B-day anytime.
No vehicles allowed.
Lou Reed vs. Boss….
8 to 3 Wildsider.

That same article though, notes that Percival is very close to Joe Maddon, the Rays’ manager, and for that reason may take less cash to sign with them.

By the way, Thurm, do you, perchance enjoy tequila?

Thurm, you’re all heart.

MLBTR is referencing Ken Rosenthal about the Yankees being in on Percival, and perhaps a signing is imminent.

That same article though, notes that Percival is very close to Joe Maddon, the Rays’ manager, and for that reason may take less cash to sign with them.

Olney has been saying that Percival is going to Tampa since early this afternoon.

Olney has been saying that Percival is going to Tampa since early this afternoon.

The Rays with Kazmir, Garza and, if it turns out that way, Percival, would be a real pain in the ass to deal with.

When Evan Longoria replaces Iwamura at 3B, the Rays will be even more formidable.

By the way, do the Rays have any actual, you know, fans?

By the way, according to Heyman (at 6:42 PM) the Twins demand for Santana remains Melky, one of Joba/Hughes/IPK and “one or two younger prospects.”

I think it’s kinda weird how JobaHughesIPK are lumped together in that way.  To my mind, they exist on completely different tiers.  Joba is in an untouchable class by himself—wouldn’t trade him for Mira Sorvino in a tight teddy.  IPK is a nice, polished pitcher with Mussina-type upside whom I’d gladly part with in a Santana deal.  Where I seem to part from the conventional wisdom is in ranking Hughes a lot closer to Joba than IPK. 

If the Twins’ “demand” can be sated with Melky, Kennedy + 2…then badabing, I say start fitting Johan for the stripes.  Of course, the identity of the + 2 matters.  I say no to Austin Jackson, but I’d do Tabata and Kontos.  Can Boston top that without Ellsbury/Buchholz?  Is Lester + Crisp better than Melky + Kennedy? 

Is there any buzz about if/how the Twins-Rays deal affects the Santana drama?  This Pridie guy—good AAA numbers but the smarties at rotoworld seem to regard him as more of a 4th OF type.  If the Twinkies like him and no longer consider CF a hole, I wonder if Betemit comes into play, as a substitute for Melky, in the Yanks’ negotiation.  I think it was IE who brought up Betemit earlier today, noting the embarrassment that is the Twins’ 3B situation.  Besides with Bartlet’s departure, even their terrible 3B isn’t their terrible 3B anymore but slides over to become their terrible SS where his offense will be merely Alvaro Espinoza bad as opposed to my dementia-addled grandma bad.

Incidentally, if Pridie is a nice-lookin’ fella, does it stand to reason that Kevin Mench is a nice guy and JJ Putz is an asshole?

The Rays with Kazmir, Garza and, if it turns out that way, Percival, would be a real pain in the ass to deal with.

Kazmir, Shields, and Garza is a pretty nifty top three.  Jackson and Sonnanstine are young enough to perhaps turn into an almost acceptable back end of the rotation at some point.  But even with Percival, the bullpen still needs a lot of work.  Earlier reports of the trade had Rincon going to Tampa as well, which would have given them another warm body out there, although he really slipped in 2007.

And for the record, I have personal knowledge of two bona fide Rays fans.

I think it’s kinda weird how JobaHughesIPK are lumped together in that way.  To my mind, they exist on completely different tiers.

They’re lumped together by the media, but I don’t think they’re considered interchangeable by rival GMs.  I would assume that the quality of the “one or two other prospects” would depend on which one of the three was part of the package.

Garza is not nifty yet.  He’s all potential and no performance thus far.  His sub 4 ERA last season was mostly due to luck given his WHIP of 1.5.

Is Lester + Crisp better than Melky + Kennedy?

Melky isn’t going to cost $10M for the next two years, so no.

If I’m the Yanks, I’d really try to keep Tabata and Austin Jackson, especially given the age of the team’s outfielders.  The organization has plenty of pitching depth and Horne is arguably a very good prospect.  Moreover, the Yanks will still have two high ceiling pitchers in the system even if Marquez is dealt as well - namely Humberto Sanchez and Christian Garcia.

I think it was IE who brought up Betemit earlier today, noting the embarrassment that is the Twins’ 3B situation.  Besides with Bartlet’s departure, even their terrible 3B isn’t their terrible 3B anymore but slides over to become their terrible SS

I thought I was the one who brought up Betemit, but anyway, I would have to think that the Twins would like to slide Punto all the way into the dugout rather than just over to SS.  Of course, this assume that Harris plays 3B.  If the Pridie kid can play CF, then Young is bumping Cuddyer from RF, so he could move back to 3B and Harris could play SS.  That would be a huge departure from the Terry Ryan defense first approach, but they might actually score some runs this way.

He’s all potential and no performance thus far.

True, but just a couple of years ago he was routinely mentioned in the same breath with Hughes and Bailey.

Garza will be 24 next year.  He can’t live off his minor league press clippings much longer.  The odds are likely that he’ll be decent, but he’s not in the same league as Hughes and is more of a back end than a font end of the rotation guy until he proves otherwise.  Pitching against teams in the AL East isn’t going to make his job easier either.

As for Pridie, he has very mediocre numbers except for a fillip in half a season at AAA.  Whether something clicked or he was merely going well in a limited sample size (a la Bronson Sardinha in 2006) is uncertain.

By the way, Thurm, whenever you have the chance to read this, Garza means heron in Spanish.

And this, of course, means that Chris Britton would love for him to be on the menu as well - being a fan of waterfowl.

I didn’t want to trade any of the three for Cabrera, offence not being the problem.  But having seen many can’t miss prospects miss, how can you balk at trading one of them for an established 28 year old ace?  If we don’t get him, I hope and pray he goes to the NL, and not Beantown.

I thought I was the one who brought up Betemit, but anyway, I would have to think that the Twins would like to slide Punto all the way into the dugout rather than just over to SS.  Of course, this assume that Harris plays 3B.  If the Pridie kid can play CF, then Young is bumping Cuddyer from RF, so he could move back to 3B and Harris could play SS.  That would be a huge departure from the Terry Ryan defense first approach, but they might actually score some runs this way.

Sorry if I failed to give you proper credit MC. 

Sure, Harris can play 3B, but 2B seems more likely.  IIRC, the organization is very down on Alexi Casilla and his ‘tude/maturity problem.  Don’t see Cuddyer being bumped out of the OF because they’re missing a LF too—unless you count Kubel whose knees are currently made of oatmeal.  Regardless there’s enough room, between corner OF slots and DH, for Cuddyer, Kubel, Delmon.

“And this, of course, means that Chris Britton would love for him to be on the menu as well - being a fan of waterfowl.”

Too bad it’s “Britton” and not “Bittern”, from the heron family.  Obviously he’d be a Great one, though he’d probably be nicknamed “Least”.  Actually I think I’ll start referring to him that way.

I think the biggest problem with Joba/Hughes/Kennedy and Buchholz/Lester is something that came up in Simmons’ chat today. He mentioned how Pedro was acquired for two of the “jewels” of Boston’s minor league system, so therefore, he’d be willing to part with two of the “jewels” of their CURRENT minor league system (and following that logic, he lumps Hughes/Kennedy in with Buchholz/Lester).

I think a lot of people in the media see it the same way.

The problem is (for me, at least) is that Buchholz, Lester and Hughes (and to a lesser extent, Kennedy) are just clearly a lot better than typical “prospects.” ALL FOUR of them (forgetting Joba, as everyone knows he is special) are quite capable MAJOR LEAGUE pitchers RIGHT NOW.

They just are NOT on the same level as a Carl Pavano or a Matt Drews or a Brian Rose or a Marty Janzen or a Tony Armas, Jr. or a Brandon Claussen or an Ed Yarnell.

All those guys were PROSPECTS that we really did NOT know how they would handle the majors. That is just not the case for Buchholz, Lester, Hughes and Kennedy. We don’t know if any of the four will be #1s or #2s (or even #3s), but we basically know that the odds are EXCELLENT that they will all at least be serviceable #4s (excepting injuries, of course).

And that is just totally throwing media discussions of these things out of whack.

I just hope Bill Smith doesn’t let the media get to him.

By the way, do the Rays have any actual, you know, fans?

Not really, but it’d be a good time to get in on the ground floor. Perhaps this year the mix at Rays/Yanks games at the Trop will be closer to 30/70 this year, instead of the standard 25/75

The problem is (for me, at least) is that Buchholz, Lester and Hughes (and to a lesser extent, Kennedy) are just clearly a lot better than typical “prospects.”

the problem for me is that Santana is not Pedro and never will be.

so, better prospects for an inferior pitcher?  sigh.

my gut tells me Hughes is going to be a Twin and Santana a Yankee.

my gut tells me Hughes is going to be a Twin and Santana a Yankee.

Straight-up?  I think I’d do it.  Hughes+Melky+?  No, I don’t think I would.  I love the prospect of Hughes being an All-Star for the next decade, but Santana is likely one of the top 3 or 4 pitchers in baseball for the next few years at least.  Hughes I think will be a good pitcher next year, and very good the year after, but probably isn’t until 2010 where he’s at the level Santana would be.

Again, straight-up yeah, probably (though I reserve the right to change my mind).  Or if somehow there was a Santana+Nathan centered around Hughes+ maybe.  But I can’t see Hughes PLUS another player from the ML roster, PLUS another highly touted prospect, just for Santana.

no, definitely not straight up. yes, it would probably be Hughes, Melky, and another prospect.

gut feeling.  that’s all.

It does seem like the Twins are going to be making out well for themselves.  All they have to off is one year of Santana and an opportunity for the other team to have the honor of paying him max dollars.  It is Santana, and I’m not one of those people who blindly think if the Yankees don’t trade for him they can sign him as a free agent in a year, but I think a line needs to be drawn, and I wouldn’t give up Hughes.

I’ll wrap up my 2 cents on this thread by addressing the Ian/Joba/Phil vs. other prospect debate:

I think Ian/Joba/Phil are no longer prospects.  All three have pitched in the majors to some extent, with (mostly) success, although the sample size is small.  This puts them leagues ahead of former prospects like Ed Yarnall and current prospects like Alan Horne.

These three are very valuable and should be retained at all costs.  Their value is known and prized by other GMs - which is why everyone is trying to get one of them.