Yay, Mo! indeed.

Now if Hoffman would hurry up and retire already, Mo could get on with the business of becoming the all-time leader in saves.

Can we go easier on the underlining?  I mean seriously.

underlining?

Can we go easier on the underlining?  I mean seriously.

?

On my screen everything is underlined.  It’s rather frightening.

Yeah, I’m not seeing this mysterious underlining either.  Seriously.

So Lee Smith’s HOF votes will probably plummet this year. Mo is making some moves on BB-ref this year, that’s for sure. It’s going to be impossible, until the decline of modern civilization, for a baseball fan to not know who he was.

Aceves looks like he can be a useful pitcher. Just attacks the strike zone.

Aceves looks like he can be a useful pitcher. Just attacks the strike zone.

I am not going to dispute that, but I believe unfamiliarity is helping him at this time. I will wait until the league adjusts for the first time, and see how he readjusts. I am still waiting to see how Ian Kennedy readjusts, and I reckon Kennedy has a brighter future than Aceves.

On my screen everything is underlined.  It’s rather frightening.

Drugs are bad, mmmmkay? 

So Lee Smith’s HOF votes will probably plummet this year.

Good article at HBT yesterday on HOF voting, and Chris Jaffe closes by discussing Smith.  He seems to feel Smith could go either way; his claim to fame is/was being the career saves leader, and now he’s lost that (and second place), but at the same time the eligible relievers clearly ahead of him are no longer on the ballot, so Smith may move up.  Personally, I don’t believe he belongs in.

Aceves looks like he can be a useful pitcher. Just attacks the strike zone.

It will be interesting what Aceves starts out as next year.  Fifth starter?  Swingman?  Or AAA for depth?  Probably depends mostly on what the Yankees do this off-season, but I sure like him being one of the first in line if a starter goes down.

Actually, Aceves seems to have a bit more fastball than Kennedy and certainly has shown greater command at the major league level.  The Mexican Gangster is also far more stingier with the free passes.

I am not going to dispute that, but I believe unfamiliarity is helping him at this time. I will wait until the league adjusts for the first time, and see how he readjusts.

Absolutely. Especially with a change up pitcher, where deception is key. But he’s throwing strikes, and pretty good strikes for the most part. And when he makes mistakes, hitters have been off balance. He’s going to give up a bunch of homers, like most change up guys, but he’s not going to give in and walk guys and he’s not going to waste pitches nibbling and that’s a pretty important quality for a Major League starter. A 4 to 1 K/BB ratio is a pretty good start to a Major League career.

I am still waiting to see how Ian Kennedy readjusts, and I reckon Kennedy has a brighter future than Aceves.

He does. But Aceves looks like a good bit of starting depth that won’t be wasted in AAA and is ready to help whenever he’s needed, something the Yanks haven’t had in forever.

Aceves also doesn’t need to be babied innings-wise, which will also come in handy given the Joba/Hughes restrictions in effect for 2009. 

Speaking of which, I would prefer to see Joba open next season as a starter with periodic skips to his turn rather than a re-run of this season.  With Melancon being ready for prime time next season, the need for Joba in the pen will be that much less anyway.

Aceves could be the long-man/spot starter that this team has sorely lacked for so long.

Can we go easier on the underlining?  I mean seriously.

<u>Nobody knows what you’re talking about….</u>

yeah, i think we’ll see a lot of Aceves next year as the #6 starter.  and none of Rasner.

this was a nice pick-up to improve the team at the margins.

yeah, i think we’ll see a lot of Aceves next year as the #6 starter.  and none of Rasner.

Amen to that!

this was a nice pick-up to improve the team at the margins.

I wonder if the, “Cashman never makes low-risk moves to pick up useful players!!!” crowd will acknowledge this?  Probably not.

I would prefer to see Joba open next season as a starter with periodic skips to his turn rather than a re-run of this season.

OK, we hear this a fair bit, but has anybody thought about just how periodic those skips would have to be to keep him at around 150 innings?  That’s about 24 starts at about six and a third IP per.  Presumably, there’s a point in the season (August 1?) beyond which you want him going every fifth day.  Those two months (10-12 starts) are close to half of his limit right there.  That means that he’s only going to be able to make 12-14 out of 20-22 possible starts during the first four months of the season.  IOW, skipping him almost every other time through the rotation.  I just don’t think that’s practical.

Now, I suppose that you could make the arithmetic work if you had Chamberlain and Hughes share a rotation slot.  They’d alternate starts; they’d be on pretty strict pitch counts; the guy not starting would always be the first guy out of the pen on the days when the other one starts.  You would hope to get 5 + 3 or 6 + 2 innings out of them most of the time.  Four months of that should put them each at around 80 innings, and they could both go every fifth day for the last two months.  Beautiful in theory, but we all know it will never happen.

Now, I suppose that you could make the arithmetic work if you had Chamberlain and Hughes share a rotation slot.

I was thinking about this the other day and thought that we might be too rigidly sticking to this “rule of 30” thing. While I agree that its a nice rule of thumb given the evidence, I think you have to be careful with trying to game the innings that the pitcher gets. It seems like it should be a 30 (to 40, max) inning increase in the same role, doing the same thing (trying to pitch into the 7th, 8th, 9th) etc. If that’s the case, maybe it makes sense to just start Joba late. Mix in innings caps with Hughes and Kennedy and this whole thing is shaping up to be a mess.

Presumably, there’s a point in the season (August 1?) beyond which you want him going every fifth day.

I’m not sure why you’d make this presumption if you know you’re dealing with a hard innings cap.

We also don’t have to assume he’s going to pitch six innings a start.  Maybe you pull him after five a few times.  25 starts at 5.7 innings/start is 142 innings, and you’d only have to skip him 7 times or so.

25 starts at 5.7 innings/start is 142 innings, and you’d only have to skip him 7 times or so.

I like this idea better. But then what do you do with Hughes? You’ve got the same problem.

Mix in innings caps with Hughes and Kennedy and this whole thing is shaping up to be a mess.

i think Kennedy has likely pitched himself out of their plans for 2008.  he will probably start the season as the #7 or #8 starter.

I’m not sure why you’d make this presumption if you know you’re dealing with a hard innings cap.

Because I’m assuming that they’re going to be trying to make the playoffs next season, and will want to have a set pitching rotation for the stretch run.

25 starts at 5.7 innings/start is 142 innings, and you’d only have to skip him 7 times or so.

So now you’re intentionally developing him as a five inning pitcher.  Not to mention that the game situation has to have some impact on these decisions.  Not to mention the already-mentioned effort to make the playoffs.  I’m sorry, but it sounds like you’re basically advocating treating the whole season like spring training for Chamberlain and Hughes.

If Joba is the team’s no. 5 starter, the innings cap isn’t such a problem.  I believe that’s why Cashman wants to land Sabathia, so he can have him and Wang penciled in for 420 innings, followed by Pettitte, Mussina and Joba with Hughes, Aceves and Kennedy ready to step in when the inevitable injury rears its head.

Also, the bullpen next season promises to be fairly good so pulling Joba after five innings shouldn’t really hurt the team - especially if the guys at the front of the rotation are pitching 7-8 innings per outing.

So now you’re intentionally developing him as a five inning pitcher.

No, a 5.7 inning starter, which is closer to a 6 inning starter.

I’m sorry, but it sounds like you’re basically advocating treating the whole season like spring training for Chamberlain and Hughes.

Where did I say anything about Hughes?

The answer here is simple. Joba should pitch every inning for the rest of the season.

i think Kennedy has likely pitched himself out of their plans for 2008.  he will probably start the season as the #7 or #8 starter.

I know you mean 2009…not sure what their plans for IPK are now.  Is Coke going to start in AAA, or be a reliever at some level?  If he starts, is he ahead of Kennedy?  Etc.  I think they still look at him as a major-league starter, but for-sure I could see him not getting called up until post ASB.

25 starts at 5.7 innings/start is 142 innings, and you’d only have to skip him 7 times or so.

Another idea I’ve heard is just start him late.  E.g. start his spring-training mid-April instead of mid-Feb, so that he’s “ready” to pitch beginning of July.  After that, just let him pitch and monitor his innings.  Honestly, I don’t really know if there is a *good* way to limit his innings to around 140 (assuming he is a starter for at least half of those), and maximize his value.  Probably the best for both sides is to match up developing Joba with the team’s needs.

Funny how we’re going to spend the offseason having the same discussion about Joba and Hughes’ innings that we had last offseason.  I mean, you all are.

IE’s back with a vengeance!  Did you see that in your absence we named you Secretary of Defense for when the RLYW takes over the oval office? It was the Sarah Palin thread, about two Thursdays ago.

Funny how we’re going to spend the offseason having the same discussion about Joba and Hughes’ innings that we had last offseason.  I mean, you all are.

Sucks, doesn’t it?  Hopefully next off-season, Hughes and Joba (at least) are mainstays of the rotation (along with Wang and maybe CC), and the debate is IPK vs. Betances (or Brackman or ??) for the 5th spot.  Much less stressful conversation!

Another idea I’ve heard is just start him late.  E.g. start his spring-training mid-April instead of mid-Feb

I guess one issue with this is what happens if he gets injured again?  Starting him on-time means a minor injury wouldn’t prevent him from reaching the innings he needs, but an minor injury could mean an set-back in the number of innings if he starts the season in July (see this year).  Now, one of the things that probably is being considered is to move him back to the bullpen permanently if another shoulder-type injury occurs, and I can’t say that I totally disagree with that.  I guess you have to consider the risk of injury and how it plays into the innings limit.

Hughes is more injury prone than Joba.  Why doesn’t anyone propose moving him to the bullpen to keep him healthy?  Wang sustained a shoulder injury in 2005.  Why didn’t he begin 2006 in the pen?  I’m not sure I understand this sort of reasoning.  After all, don’t relievers sustain injuries too?  How will pitching two days in a row (or three) affect Joba’s shoulder?  The guy is a starter.  He wants to start.  The team needs starters.  And he’s also quite a good starter.  I really don’t see the case for Joba in the bullpen.  Josh Beckett was constantly injured before the age of 25 and no one wanted to banish him to the bullpen.  This whole thing reeks of John Sterling/Ian O’Connor type reasoning which, as Secretary of Defense, I will eradicate during an RLYW administration.

Where did I say anything about Hughes?

OK.  I was talking about both of them.  I shouldn’t have assumed that you were too.

This whole thing reeks of John Sterling/Ian O’Connor type reasoning which, as Secretary of Defense, I will eradicate during an RLYW administration.

IE is off to an excellent start, already extending the authority of his presumptive office to domestic matters.  The boy will go far, I tell ya.

Hughes is more injury prone than Joba.

is he though?  i guess so, in that he has been injured more often.  but which pitcher is “more” injury prone:  the guy with a broken toe, pulled hamstring, cracked rib, and rolled ankle?  or the guy with a triceps injury in college and a shoulder injury this year?

not saying i know the answer.  but i’d probably take 4 non-arm injuries over 2 arm-injuries. 

Wang sustained a shoulder injury in 2005.  Why didn’t he begin 2006 in the pen?  I’m not sure I understand this sort of reasoning.

is anyone around the Yankees proposing moving Joba to the bullpen permanently?
i haven’t heard that in any official capacity.  what i am hearing is that the Yankees might have to limit his innings again, and the mechanism for that would be the bullpen.

the difference, i think, between Joba and other pitching prospects, is that with other “mortals”, you can use the minor leagues to limit their innings and get them ready.  but Joba is SO F*CKING GOOD, that every inning spent in the minors is a colossal waste.

again, i am not saying i have the best way to handle this problem.  all i am saying is that the Yankees are in a tough spot.

So long as we’re eradicating things, IE, do you think you could take care of this as well? (Scroll down to the ‘Sound bites’ section).  Ugh.

On my screen, everything is wonderful colors! Ooooooh…..

is anyone around the Yankees proposing moving Joba to the bullpen permanently?

Other than Jorge of course.  Yeah, I think the whole debate is what the *best* way is to get Joba up to 140 innings next year, but yet still get the most value to the Yankees.  Is skipping 8 or more starts the best for him (and them)?  Repeating in 2009 what they tried in 2008?  Something else?  I really don’t think there is a “right” answer.  I’m sure if you look hard enough you could find several examples of each method working - and failing - in the past 25 years.

I do not like the idea of *making* Joba a five inning pitcher.

Start the season in the bullpen and go from there.

As for the 30+ inning issue, there’s too much recent evidence that it should be hewed to.

Make him a starter from the get go.  The minor injuries he probably will sustain as a young pitcher (see for example this year) will likely solve the innings issue for you.  If it hasn’t be the end of July skipping a start or two and working out of the bullpen on throw days is a far better alternative.

I want Joba in the rotation, but this idea that all young pitchers suffer injuries and then get over them and become stronger is really not correct. Muscular and ligament injuries aren’t like broken bones. We don’t come back stronger, when you injure a muscle you are more likely to reinjure it. That’s aprt of the reason why so many prospects never make it, because they can never overcome their injuries, it’s only a small minority that are able to totally get over their injuries.

I understand the desire to protect Joba in the bullpen. I think it’s silly, since he’s essentially throwing max effort in both situations. Joba is probably slightly more likely to get injured in the rotation due to fatigue: his chance of getting injured on each pitch grows slightly. But, since everything is max effort the risk of getting injured in pitch 1 is not that far away from getting injured in pitch 100, providing his mechanics don’t degrade, something the pitching coach and manager should be watching for anyway.

I think you have to go into the season with both Joba and Hughes in the rotation, if possible, and deal with the inning limits when they become a problem. That’s why the Yankees have guys that can spot start, like Aceves.

He should finish this season with 100 inn then throw 20-30 in the AFL (I don’t know how many games they play this # may not be a possibility).  And then be ready to pitch 160 next year.  Then you could keep his innings per game low in April/May and have him for the stretch run.

i like the option of sending him to winter ball, but i haven’t heard anything from the organization about it.

The Bricktown Showdown is on ESPN2 tonight at 8… If anyone wants to see Ian Kennedy make minor leaguer hitters look stupid.

Game on local television, Pettitte starting, eh-ish.

Jeter passes Gehrig on the hit list.  Kinda lame way to do it - first pitch swinging, squirts under the 3b’s glove, could’ve been scored an error.

History making Jeter hit.

Walk, GS.

Line out, three-run hr.

Stupid quantum effects messing with the future.

Pfft.

I think the absence of a GIDP threw it off.

Schroedinger’s at-bat?

Schroedinger’s at-bat?

If ARod came to bat and no one cared, did he get booed?

Home-runs hit by batters who are thinner than the bat they hold count double against the pitcher.  Bad Andy.

Cano used to get those. Like earlier this year.

Cano used to get those. Like earlier this year.

He gotta recover his swing, at least us fans are well used to the “past a diving…” part.

Stop the presses, Gardner got a base hit!

At at bats like this, I really hate Jeter.

What a dick. Why would you bunt you dick? It’s 1-1 in THE 3RD!

Every time Jeter bunts early in the game, a fairy dies.  Please, think of the fairies!

Wow, Kay is like super pissed. And I agree with him.

Flaherty is being stupid.

So is Leiter.  Ugh.

Holy crap, Michael Kay makes sense regarding Jeter bunting.

And THIS is why bunting Jeter was stupid.

We need more underlining, dammit. I think that is the only way to save this ...

Uh, what was I saying?

I love Andy Pettitte, but if I never see him in Yankee uniform again after this season I’ll be pretty happy.

Andy Pettitte hopefully will have his farewell at the Yankee Stadium on Sunday night. And hopefully, he will hang it up after that. He is just not living up to the standards that he has set, and to stutter like this to the end is probably not a good idea.

Alexei Ramirez’s gameday picture looks pretty goofy.

Pettitte has been let down a bit by the defense, but he still sucks.

Anyone watching the AAA game on ESPN2?  Brad Knox is rocking an impressive pornstache…

I love Andy Pettitte, but if I never see him in Yankee uniform again after this season I’ll be pretty happy.

I totally agree.  Though I don’t mind him making it to the old timer games now and then.

And I see some of the other side, that he can be a passable 5 starter or for stretches be better.  But likely too much money, and if the 5 starter is going to be beat up, I rather be someone else.

“I love Andy Pettitte, but if I never see him in Yankee uniform again after this season I’ll be pretty happy.”

I probably thought this about Moose last year.

I probably thought this about Moose last year.

IIRC, outside of a horrific stretch, Moose was actually somewhat decent last year.  Pettitte, on the other hand, has consistently trended downhill for a while now.  And, as villainx points out, for the amount of money he’ll ask for, he’s not worth it.

Is it too early to point out that Beckett is pitching a no-hitter against the Rays?  The Rays have no hits.  Every ball they’ve put into play has been turned into an out.  They have a big fat zero next to their hits column. No-hitter no-hitter no-hitter.

Anyone watching the AAA game on ESPN2?  Brad Knox is rocking an impressive pornstache…

Please don’t mock us none cable or satellite viewers, or listeners for that matter.

Nice work.

Woohoo.  I take full credit for that.

IPK is doing his big-league Ian impression.

ERA WHIP BAA
5.15 1.47 .311
vs
4.52 1.40 .290

He claims he didn’t manage to get conditioned last winter due to the hearings, hence is running out of steam; and he would fix the first part at least.

* By viewers I mean subscribers, renters, owners, or however the satellite or cable companies describe their customers.  And I guess I should add online subscribers, etc.

Walk, GS.

Rilke, just give up.

Ok.

That kind of sucked.

Let me try:

GRD, strikeout, HR.

Whatever.

Extras in TB. Go Rays.

Bosox extend Theo’s contract.

Sorry, bottom of the 9th Rays on 1st and 2nd, no outs- Bat Masterson in for the Sawx.

I thought you were in the future there Thurm.

Eva K’s, one down.

Bat plunks Floyd the barber Bases loaded one down.

Navarro wins it for the good guys! Deep fly to the track. FU Bahstun.

Yay, Rays win!

Holy Nettles supeballs, I scooped the wee pinstriped primate.
Later folks.
Puj I wish I was in the future. Fixin the market for the lads.

superballs. umph.

Watch out, otf.

Juan Miranda, come on down.

Well done Rilke.

Re: Pettitte…

If Andy were just struggling, I’d say he was going through a bad stretch.  If he however has a shoulder-injury - especially if it will require surgery - that is a different thing.  I really have the feeling that if he needs surgery - even “minor” surgery - this off-season that he’ll hang it up.

But if he doesn’t - or if he gives rehab a try - I’m still not opposed to signing him in principle.  However, I’d really want him to take a contract with a small amount of guarenteed money.  E.g. $1M, add a million for every 40IP or something.  An Andy Pettitte that can throw 200IP is still probably worth 6 million, even if that comes with an ERA+ around 90.

Before I get jumped on, this is still contingent on what else the Yanks do in the off-season.  If they sign CC, Sheets, and Moose (for example) there is no need for Pettitte.  The idea is if on Jan 1, they still have a need for a starter to eat some innings, and Pettitte wants to come back, I’d be comfortable giving him an incentive-laden deal.  Whether or not he’d go for it, I have no idea.