I thought this was pretty funny:

jonahkeri
 
Not really fair that #Yankees have to wait ‘til 2011 to get Mauer. Maybe they can just buy out the Twins + save a step.

Melky, Dunn “and a prospect.”

Melky & Dunn for Vasquez = excellent.  The unnamed prospect, however, will have me a little concerned until I know who it is.

So, a qualified kudos to Cash for undoing a mistake.

nyp_joelsherman
 
so the trade is vazquez and boone logan to #Yankees for melky cabrera, mike dunn and arodys vizcaino, that is now confirmed by Post

So right now the OF is Granderson, Swisher, Gardner and Hoffman.  If (big IF, IMO) the Yankees roll with those guys as their opening-day OFers, I have to think they’d at least consider having Granderson play LF and put Gardner in CF (platoon with Hoffman?).  Most of Gardner’s value is defense in CF…

Dude, this has been a busy offseason!

I would guess there’s another trade coming for a LF.

arodys vizcaino…

From BP’s Yankees top 11 prospectus article (Goldstein):

2. Arodys Vizcaino, RHP
DOB: 11/13/90
Height/Weight: 6-0/189
Bats/Throws: R/R
Drafted/Signed: Dominican Republic, 2007
2009 Stats: 2.13 ERA (42.1-34-15-52) at Short-season (10 G)
Last Year’s Ranking: 5

Year in Review: The high-ceiling Dominican dominated the much older hitters of the New York-Penn League.
The Good: Vizcaino’s combination of stuff and refinement is rarely found in a teenager. His clean arm action leads to effortless 92-94 mph fastballs that get up to 97 when he reaches back for a bit more, while his smooth mechanics allow him to harness his pitches and pound the strike zone. His power curveball already grades out as big-league average with the projection of becoming a true wipeout offering.
The Bad: Vizcaino is a touch undersized, which limits his projection, although his leg drive helps convince most that he can remain a starter. He telegraphs his changeup, but it’s a flaw often found in young power arms. More than anything, he just needs experience.
Ephemera: Playing for Staten Island, 18 of Vizcaino’s 52 strikeouts came in the second inning, where he faced just 37 hitters.
Perfect World Projection: Vizcaino’s ceiling tops that of any pitcher in the system, by a significant margin. It will take time, but the skills are there for him to become an All-Star starter.
Path to the Big Leagues: Vizcaino is at least three years away from the big leagues, but the Yankees have a recent history of struggling with the development of young pitchers once they reach the majors.
Timetable: Vizcaino will make his much-anticipated full-season debut at Low-A Charleston in 2010.

So it hurts a bit, since Vizcaino is a real talent.  Considering he’s 3+ years away from the bigs, though, I can’t be particularly upset about it.  In a perfect world, he becomes Javy Vasquez in ~5 years.

Who/what is Boone Logan, btw?

I would guess there’s another trade coming for a LF.

Absolutely.  It could be a trade, or it could be one of the three LF’s that are still free agents.

I’m sticking with my opinion that the plan has always been to sign Matt Holliday.

Who/what is Boone Logan, btw?

25 year old (in 2010) lefty reliever who has a few years of going between the minors and majors.  I posted on the other thread before I realized this one was here, looks like the same thing as Dunn except they are positive what Logan is, and not yet sure if Dunn is the same.

Two things the Yankees have a lot of in the system - RH pitchers and catchers.  Vizcaino hurts a little, but not a lot.  Now the goal is to find innings for Hughes.

I’m guessing Rilke is doing backflips now.

This looks like an absolute steal. Melky + Arodys for Vasquez!!!!  Melky also costs money now and Javy will probably be a type A and should be offered arbitration. Only downside is that they are again damaging the development of Fuse Chamber, but at least this time is for a real upgrade. (Dunn for Logan is a wash, no?)

We need projections. Somebody wakes SG, our craving is too strong. I’m ready to start robbing my grandma.

The biggest negative of this trade, all things being equal, is that Hughes or Joba will be in the pen. Or they made an internal decision, despite their public comments, that Joba should pitch out of the pen.

Christ.  If Cashman signs Holliday now… OMG what a juggernaught.

[11] somehow I thought the post was from Jonathan. And I should have refreshed before asking for projections. Thanks SG.

Haha

Vazquez is weird.  He strikes out lots of guys, doesn’t walk many, usually puts up good FIPs and xFIPs as a result, but his ERA has frequently been a significant bit higher.

2005: 4.06 FIP/3.31 xFIP versus 4.42 ERA
2006: 3.86 FIP/4.05 xFIP versus 4.84 ERA
2007: dead on
2008: 3.74 FIP/3.85 xFIP versus 4.67 ERA
2009: dead on

I thought maybe the park factors had something to do with it, but in 2005, 2006, and 2008 he was virtually the same or worse on the road than in his home park.

Feinsand:

BloggingBombers
 
I am told that this does NOT re-open the door for Johnny Damon to come back to the Bronx.

My grandma thanks you too, by the way.

Also, for everyone’s information, Vazquez is in the final year of a three year contract that will pay him $11.5M in 2010.

A reasonable but not insignificant salary, but no long-term commitment.

What does this do to the outfield situation? I believe Vazquez made $11.5 mill this year…wouldn’t it go against the talk of limiting or reducing payroll to now add another outfielder i.e. Holliday or Damon ?

Unless, of course, Cash trades one of Joba/Phil for a good young LFer…

I hope they haven’t decided that one of the two is a reliever, The End.  I hope they look at this as “hey, we’re going to need 6+ starters anyway.  We’ll find the innings for them.”  Easier said than done, of course.

[12] Reports are that they didn’t want both in the rotation, but not sue which one will go to the bullpen.

Ok, so CAIRO sees a ~3.5 ERA from Javy.  Given that he seems to often underperform his FIP, and because of DNYS/AL East factor, I’m mentally adjusting that up to an ERA of ~4.

I wouldn’t expect Vazquez to come close to the projection in the AL.  He almost always underperforms his FIPs, has a low strand rate etc.

I expect 210 IP of 4.25-4.50 ERA, and everyone will be disappointed again.

Still a good deal based on what they gave up.

[21] *sure*

[12] Yes, that is a downside.  I’d have to think it is Hughes to the pen, since they went through all that work to get Joba his innings last year.  Unless they believe Joba has real issues that would prevent him from being a consistently good starter.

So the question is do they have a plan in place to get Hughes the innings he needs to replace either Vazquez or Pettitte in the rotation next year?

And no, I now have more doubts that Holliday is coming than before.  Payroll has got to be pushing $200M now; I’m sure they were willing to go a little over, but not sure if they want to set a new record.  Granderson in LF and a Hoffman/Gardner platoon in CF is probably more than enough.

I expect 210 IP of 4.25-4.50 ERA  That’s probably even more realistic, yeah.

That’s Andy Pettitte.  I’ll take that.

And no, I now have more doubts that Holliday is coming than before.

Unless the Braves are picking up some of Vazquez’s salary, or there is another deal in the works involving Swisher, I don’t see how they can add Hollliday’s salary.

I am told that this does NOT re-open the door for Johnny Damon to come back to the Bronx.

Yeah, I think it would take a lot of begging and pleading to reopen that door.  Maybe if it gets to be late January and the Cards have re-signed Holliday and the Mets have finally landed Bay and Damon still doesn’t have an any decent offers…

I believe Vazquez made $11.5 mill this year…wouldn’t it go against the talk of limiting or reducing payroll to now add another outfielder i.e. Holliday or Damon ?

Yes, but as noted while you were hitting the submit button, it’s only for one year.  Also, Melky stands to get at least $2.5M in arb, so they’re adding ~$9M.

This is probably OK for the Braves too.  They’ve got lots of young starting pitching, Cabrera figures to hit better in AAAA, and McLouth is only an imitation of a CFer.

I hope I don’t offend anyone by this (I don’t mean to), but this is like Cashman’s version of Munich. First he gets back Johnson, now Vazquez.

With Vazquez and Pettitte both on one year deals, it seems that it is still pretty important to get FUSE CHAMBER REAM their innings.  Even if the plan is to sign Cliff Lee for 2011, they’ll still be a starter short if Javy walks and Andy retires.

Unless, of course, Cash trades one of Joba/Phil for a good young LFer…

Braun? That would be a Christmas miracle.

With Vazquez and Pettitte both on one year deals, it seems that it is still pretty important to get FUSE CHAMBER REAM their innings.

Assuming this Vizcaino kid doesn’t end up becoming Felix Hernandez, this is one helluva stop gap Cashman got us. The challenge now is only to get Hughes ~ 150-160 IP this year.now

This IS the year of miracles!

Both Melky AND IPK were traded.  Not for one, but TWO players!  It really IS true that Melky and IPK can get you anyone!

“Unless the Braves are picking up some of Vazquez’s salary, or there is another deal in the works involving Swisher, I don’t see how they can add Hollliday’s salary. “

They’re the New York Yankees, why can’t they add Holliday’s contract?

Trading Swisher makes no sense.  It just moves the OF hole, and leaves them without an OF who can play RF.

Seriously, do you think the $7M Swisher makes is going to cause them to open a gaping hole on a $200M+ team?  I don’t.

[34]

Trading Swisher makes no sense.  It just moves the OF hole, and leaves them without an OF who can play RF.

It makes sense if they sign Holliday because Holliday is a much better player. So it would be about payroll/talent, not merely talent.

nyp_joelsherman
 
#Yankees say Melky departure does not open door to Damon nor put Bay/Holliday in play. Still saying all too expensive

13. I was wondering the same thing… losing Melky hurts the flexibility of the OF, so Ca$hman MUST have a plan to grab somebody…

One of these reporters has to get Cashman on the phone and ask him who the starting LFer is now, even if it’s just the cursory response.

I’m okay with this deal, but I think the projections are a little optimistic.  His career ERA in the AL is 4.52, yet his 20% projection has him at 3.91.

I think it’s a stretch to call him a #1.  He’s a weird pitcher.  He has #1 peripherals with innings-eater results.  The good thing is that the Yankees will be happy with either at this point.

And the post-season record is bad (although so was CC’s, small sample-size, etc.).

The challenge now is only to get Hughes ~ 150-160 IP this year.now

I mentioned in the other thread, we don’t know what Hughes’s IP limit was this year.  Perhaps it was only 140IP, based on whatever they use to determine that.  If so, this deal makes more sense as it is easier to approach 140IP out of the bullpen w/ a few starts than it is 160IP.  Also, 120IP is acceptable then, since that is fairly close to his goal.

Wow.  I’m pretty surprised, wasn’t expecting this at all.  I first saw Vasquez on TV pitching for the White Sox in ‘05.  I was impressed then, and he looks to be rather durable, which is pretty cool.

LOCK THE STATE!

Signing Chapvman would more than offset the loss of Vizcaino.

Not to go against the flow or anything, but I can’t see how having Joba or Hughes in the pen is a negative.  With this move, the Yankees upgraded their already-impressive rotation AND essentially added a premier setup guy.

[39] Yeah, we’re on the same page.  My assumption is that Chamberlain starts the year in the rotation, and they just have to get Hughes the innings they want him to get. As MC said, with Vazquez and Pettitte off the books in 2011, you still haven’t deviated from the plan of these two guys being starters.

13. I was wondering the same thing… losing Melky hurts the flexibility of the OF, so Ca$hman MUST have a plan to grab somebody…

Why?  They have two guys who are natural CF, with enough arm (Gardner would be below average but not awful) to play RF.  Pena got some time in CF last year in the minors so now he’s the 5th OF, and he’s got plenty of arm and range, it is just a matter of learning to make the reads.  Their only problem is if Granderson or Swisher gets hurt, and honestly that was a problem that Melky didn’t do much to solve anyway.

Sure, adding another OF with some bat (Nady maybe?) would be nice, but I don’t think it is a necessity.

Jamie Hoffmann essentially replaces Melky.  The difference in their projections only amounts to about six runs over a full season, and they can narrow that gap by giving Hoffmann a higher percentage of his playing time against LHP.  They will only have four OF on the 40 man roster though, so they probably will look to add someone for depth, maybe a Reed Johnson or Randy Winn type.

Not to go against the flow or anything, but I can’t see how having Joba or Hughes in the pen is a negative.

The negative is that it makes you wonder when/if one of them will be able to pitch sufficient innings to be a full-time starter, unless the one that goes to the pen isn’t used as a one (or sometimes two) inning reliever.

[35]“It makes sense if they sign Holliday because Holliday is a much better player. So it would be about payroll/talent, not merely talent. “

Not arguing that.  But if they add Holliday and push the payroll to $225M, it makes no sense to ditch Swisher to save a relatively minor $7M, while opening a huge hole on the team.

If they can spend $215M, they can spend $220M and avooid the headache.

[43] It’s the sense of wasting a homegrown guy.  For all of the sense here, I think we tend to privilege our own, and go a bit overboard on the fungible bullpen/starters are insanely more valuable philosophy.  I’m one of those who tends to go overboard.

Likewise, even if it eats into some of their innings, I am much happier with six starters I like than five.  Someone is going to miss some games due to an injury or something else.  Fuse Chamber Ream may not hit optimal IP this year, but they’ll both get starts.  Plus, here’s how it plays right now:

CC
Javy
AJ
BC
F/CR

Ace/Gaudin
D-Rob
Marte
F/CR
Rivera

That’s what, almost a third the aces the Sox have?  Who else is even close?

Looks to me as though Vasquez (and post 15) as if Vasquez had matched his peripherals in 2 of the past 3 years, at least.  And by bringing his ERA down to the peripherals, not the other way around.
On the other hand - it’s just something I noticed, I do NOT think it has any meaning - he almost seems to be developing a Saberhagen-like up-down year cycle, with this coming year being the ‘down’ year in the cycle.

Vasquez is projecting as one of the top pitchers in the game, AND he has a very, very reasonable contract.  NYA gets him for a package built around Melky?  I’m not in love with Vasquez, but this deal seems unfair to the point of stupidity, or at least requiring some kind of explanation.  What am I missing?  Do the Braves really think that highly of Melky?  Is A-Rod(ys) the key to this deal?

My dad called me this morning and told me about the trade and I figured either Manny Banuelos or Vizcaino would be gone in it. Good guess. Good trade, I was looking forward to following Vizcaino next year though.

We really are going to have to come up with a new group of players to trade.

[48] If they are willing to boost their payroll, I agree.

I probably need to start ignoring their claim that intend to lower the payroll.

Also, what does CAIRO project for Lackey on Boston, SG?

While the key to the deal was probably Vizcaino, I think a lot of GM’s value Melky more than Yankee fans do.

I was going to post this about Melky a few threads back, but I got distracted.

Player A age 24

AB 567 R 66 H 152 2B 31 3B 4 HR 12 RBI 68 SB 9 CS 9 BB 53 SO 106   .268 .333 .400 OPS+ 100

Player B age 24

AB 540 R 66 H 133 2B 28 3B 1 HR 13 RBI 68 SB 10 CS 2 BB 43 SO 59   .274 .336 .416 OPS+ 99

My point is not that I’m sure Melky would have turned into an epic-hero Yankee, but that it still was a possibility, given his age, and that everything we know about baseball says that his ceiling is significantly better than we’ve seen so far.

His career ERA in the AL is 4.52

Were the 04 and 06-08 White Sox particularly good defensive teams? I don’t know, but I don’t think they were.

Do the Braves really think that highly of Melky?  Is A-Rod(ys) the key to this deal?

The Braves OF was pretty bad last year.  Melky would probably be an upgrade on what they got out of Garrett Anderson.  Vizcaino is a very intriguing talent as well, but I think they had financial motivation to make the trade.  Liberty Media, who owns the Braves, are EXTREMELY cost-conscious.

nyp_joelsherman
 
#Yanks felt could spend on SP or LF, and would rather be vulnerable in LF than rotation, so money on Vazquez not on LF

As currently constructed, this team is better than last years team, no?  And then adding Lee and Mauer next year, oh man!

If you look at the Braves BR page, it’s amazing that they couldn’t put together a team that could at least get the wild card. They had great starting pitching and solid relief pitching, but they just could not hit at all.

They must be planning on putting Melky at a corner OF spot with McLouth down there.

[50]  Vizcaino was probably the key, but I think other GM’s value Melky more than Yankee fans do.  I was going to post this about Melky a few threads back, but we moved on.

Player A age 24

AB 567 R 66 H 152 2B 31 3B 4 HR 12 RBI 68 SB 9 CS 9 BB 53 SO 106   .268 .333 .400 OPS+ 100

Player B age 24

AB 540 R 66 H 133 2B 28 3B 1 HR 13 RBI 68 SB 10 CS 2 BB 43 SO 59   .274 .336 .416 OPS+ 99

My point is not that I’m sure Melky would have turned into an epic-hero Yankee, but that it still was a possibility, given his age, and that everything we know about baseball says that his ceiling is significantly better than we’ve seen so far.

[57] Cashman has ninja’d his way through this whole offseason.  I’m not buying anything he’s selling until Spring Training starts.

It’s like one big circle jerk and we’re all in the middle.

Not that I’m complaining.

[57] They should just go dumpster diving now. Ryan Church, Jonny Gomes, Eric Hinske, Xavier Nady… something around there.

This is shaping up to be a team for the ages.
And I’m not afraid to say it: Cashmo is GM (lantern) of floating expressions!

fyi, the commentary at BTF is just great to read if you’re a yankee fan.  The yanks win the world series and Cashman has a better offseason than Theo (again) and they act like the world is ending.  Never has there been a bigger bunch of whiners.  If anything, Sox fans winning two of the last six world series’ has made them even bigger complainers who think they’ve been wronged at every turn.  Sorry for the venting, but I wasn’t exactly going to make this point over there.

BloggingBombers
 
Yankees have roughly $5-6 million to spend on left field. Shouldn’t be too difficult.

nyp_joelsherman
 
With Vazquez, #Yankees will try to save some $$ by trading Gaudin or Mitre to team seeking backend help before spring training ends

If the Yanks stand pat right now, I’m perfectly happy with an OF of Granderson/TVSBG/Swisher against righties and an OF of Hoffman/Granderson/Swisher against lefties.

I can live with this lineup:

Jeter SS
Johnson DH
Teixeira 1B
Rodriguez 3B
Granderson LF
Posada C
Cano 2B
Swisher RF
Gardner CF

With the current Yankee bench, though, I’d better post my X-Mas wishlist for health to St. Nick.

[65] Mitre, please.

From what I know, Hoffman is better deffensevely than Granderson. So Granderson should be the full time LF.

With this move, I feel like Cashman just Adrian Gonzalez-proofed the Yankees’ grip on the AL East.

From what I know, Hoffman is better deffensevely than Granderson. So Granderson should be the full time LF.

Why do you hate Gardner?

Not that either will displace Granderson, especially in year one.

In terms of Hughes, do you guys think they would consider starting him in the minors for 2-3 months as a starter to build his innings when its colder, and then bring him up in June to the pen?

Based off last year, I don’t really see any evidence to suggest that once in the pen, the Yankees will be inclined to have Hughes take the spot starts, you know, since he won’t be “stretched out.” We can hope that they will use him for long relief or two inning stints or more, but the case always seems to be that when it comes down to it, he’ll end up as “the 8th inning guy” and Acevas will take those starts. Plus, if Gaudin AND Mitre are still around (can’t imagine they will be, and the above indicates at least one will be gone (Mitre?)), then they are more likely to spot start too, no?

So, point being, unless Hughes starts the season in AAA, I don’t see any real way he gets above 100 innings this season.

Also, what does CAIRO project for Lackey on Boston, SG?

CAIRO thinks Lackey will lead all of baseball in BTM next year (breaths through mouth).  It also projects:

John Lackey(SP): 176 IP, 182 H, 18 HR, 47 BB, 139 K, 4.04 ERA, 36.6 runs saved above replacement level

[71] - I agree completely.  The biggest problem I have with Hughes in the bullpen is that is seems his problems starting have been due to inconsistent secondary pitches.  He’s not going to get to work on those out of the bullpen.  I don’t like him putting them completely on the shelf for over a year.  I’d rather have him in AAA starting until he is needed in the rotation.

Sorry for the double post: I thought the first one didn’t go through.

It’s just not fair that small market / low revenue teams like the Red Sox keep losing out under the current MLB system.

I don’t suppose the Yanks could acquire Kevin Brown too, for old time’s sake?

36.6 runs saved above replacement level

This is pretty consistent with recent seasons, no? Or a slight uptick in value?

SSF, Johnny’s available for Boston, you know…

[71] I think Hughes might be out of options.  Not sure if he burned one in 2007.  Depends on whether he was already on the 40 man when he got called up.

They must be planning on putting Melky at a corner OF spot with McLouth down there.

I think Melky is a much better defensive CFer than McLouth.  I don’t think it’s particularly close.  McLouth is really stretched in CF, no matter what last year’s UZR says.

Old time’s sake? seems that the Yankees are getting younger.

[71] I think Hughes might be out of options.  Not sure if he burned one in 2007.  Depends on whether he was already on the 40 man when he got called up.

I hope we get a definitive answer on this soon.  Seems like AAA, replacement starter, then either keep or move to the pen would be ideal.

Someone brought up a fifth starter wouldn’t be needed for the first 11 games or so, so ... who’d be the odd pitcher out then too?

80: read 78, it might make more sense.

CAIRO thinks Lackey will lead all of baseball in BTM next year (breaths through mouth).

Thread winner right there.  Mouthbreaters annoy me to no end and Lackey is a major offender.  I’m suprised his breathing doesn’t fog up the TV cameras.

I love the trade just for the ranting and raving it’s causing with Boston fans.  One step up, two steps back for the Sox.

Losing Vizcaino might hurt in the long run, but I’d like to think Cashman and Co. will find another young international fireballer to take his place in the meantime.

OK, I checked the transaction archives, and it looks like Hughes did not burn an option in 2007.  So he’s got one left.  interestingly, Chamberlain still has all three of his, since he has not spent a day in the minors since his contract was purchased in August of 2007.

The article in HBT seems to mean two things (at least):
1) AJ does not adjust to unfavorable strike zones; and
2) again, the umpiring should never be the issue - the outcome should depend on the players.

Please, please - bring on the ump-bots!

82: just trying to contribute to this site’s inanity.

84: then it’s official, right?

I always think of Teix as a mouth breather. But that might just be the way he approaches his at bats.

So ... can anyone give an opinion about whether Vasquez or Lackey would have been better for the Yankees and or Soxs?  Who’s the better pitcher, better contract, better fit, etc.

I’m getting a good shine from these Cashman moves, but I’ma guessing I’m pretty bias. I guess I can additionally ask, any gossip these moves have been anything but by Cashman?

Someone brought up a fifth starter wouldn’t be needed for the first 11 games or so, so ... who’d be the odd pitcher out then too?

I brought it up and MC confirmed it.  Looking now seems like Chamberlain, which is probably smart anyway.  Even though in theory he should be able to approach 200IP, I think everyone would be more comfortable if he was below that, if only a little.  Skipping a start or two would help that.

Sam Borden mentioned this when discussiong the Vazquez trade:

Don’t forget that Yankees executives like president Randy Levine were the ones leading the charge for Randy Johnson after the 2004 season – Levine, not Cashman was the one who literally negotiated with Arizona – so it wasn’t as if Cashman was the one running Vazquez out of town originally. Cashman always liked him.

It’s really hard to get a read on Cashman the GM pre-2005 off-season, b/c of stuff like this.  2005 on, I’m very happy with him.  He’s not perfect of course b/c no one is, and I may very well disagree with how he ends up handling Joba/Hughes this year.  But he’s very, very good.  IMHO.

I guess let’s welcome the Gardner era?

[87] Yeah. Joba seems to be the clear #5 starter now, unless the Yanks have decided that they see him as a reliever, which would really be a surprise. He’s got the innings, the talent, and will have even less pressure now with Javy in the fold.

The Yanks really should keep Hughes in AAA, have him work on his secondary pitches more, build him up so he’s pitching 8 innings per start just to log IP, and then see where they need him come June. Start Guadin in the BP along with Mo, Ace, Robertson, Marte, and whomever wins the final two or so spots in spring training (hopefully one of which will be Melancon).

Gotta say, I really like this trade.  Both sides get something they want, good all around.  I’m A-OK with the Yankees trading a good pitching prospect that’s three years away, even one with the upside of Vizcaino, for someone like Javier Vazquez. 

On the other hand, here’s a comment I found amusing:

“wow, what the fuck. This is the worst off season in recent memory “

I guess this guy longs for the signing of Sheffield and trading for Randy Johnson.

When I heard about this trade, I felt like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwQbPgouUYo

[90]“The Yanks really should keep Hughes in AAA, have him work on his secondary pitches more”

That’s not really fair to Hughes.  He’s shown he belongs in MLB.

They should use him as a true swing man in the pen.  I’d like to see them puch the top 4 SPs deeper into games when they’re pitching well, and have quicker hooks when they’re not.  A throwback style of pen management.

The overall IP for the SPs would be the same, but I’d think you’d get more value.  And, you’d have spots to stretch out Hughes and Gaudin.

I don’t get the reasoning that says pull a guy in the 7th when he’s thrown 110 pitches and looks great, but if he’s given up 4 runs byt the third, try to force him through 5 IP.  I have to think a guy is way more likely to get hurt in the 2nd situation.

I love the trade just for the ranting and raving it’s causing with Boston fans.  One step up, two steps back for the Sox.

What universe do you live in? One where a couple nitwits on WEEI don’t like Lackey, so suddenly the Red Sox are in turmoil? Because the one I like to inhabit tends to recognize a 3-4 win improvement when they see it.

Javy Vazquez is money in the bank to throw an upwards of 200 innings with about a 3.60 or 3.80 ERA. Striking out cats. And a better pitching coach this time around to help him maintain reliable mechanics… I love the trade. Looks like Hughes will still be smoking people in the eighth. Amazing. Find a decent solution for this left field scenario and we’re rolling, baby.

What universe do you live in? One where a couple nitwits on WEEI don’t like Lackey, so suddenly the Red Sox are in turmoil? Because the one I like to inhabit tends to recognize a 3-4 win improvement when they see it.

I would imagine he’s saying that Sox fans were happy with Lackey because it closed the gap against the Yankees, but are now upset because the Yankees countered with Vasquez.

...who’d be the odd pitcher out then too?

I agree that it’s most likely to be CHAMBER REAM.  Unless someone else gets a little owie in ST and needs the extra ten days to be ready.

84: then it’s official, right?

I don’t think anything is ever official with options, but I’m pretty confident that I’m reading Hughes’ status correctly.  The Yankees “purchased the contract” just before his MLB debut.  That means that he wasn’t already on the 40-man roster (it would say that he was “recalled” if he had been).  So his AAA in April, 2007 wasn’t an “optional assignment.”  Then he was activated from the 60-day DL just before his August 4 start, which means that all of his other minor league time in 2007 was on rehab assignment, which does not count as an option either.  He definitely used options in 2008 and 2009.

BTW, Mitre and Gaudin are definitely out of options.  Trading one of them would make a lot of sense, since it’s unlikely that they can carry both on the active roster and they’re liable to lose them if they try to get them through waivers to outright them to SWB.

“Javy Vazquez is money in the bank to throw an upwards of 200 innings with about a 3.60 or 3.80 ERA.”

I like the trade, but that’s an overstatement.  Before last year, his ERA+ numbers were 92, 100, 98, 126, 98 (from 2004-2008) and then the 143 in 2009.

He’s a better bet to be over a 4.00 ERA than under.  But 220 IP at a 4.25 ERA is still damn valuable.

I would imagine he’s saying that Sox fans were happy with Lackey because it closed the gap against the Yankees, but are now upset because the Yankees countered with Vasquez.

I can’t speak for the Nation, but Vazquez isn’t going to frighten too many of us, even if arguably he should. Also, in my experience most Sox fans are happy when they think the team is improving, even if the Yankees are too. If you guys signed Lackey and we traded for Vazquez, then there would be some serious ranting and raving going on.

[73] “The biggest problem I have with Hughes in the bullpen is that is seems his problems starting have been due to inconsistent secondary pitches.”

I think it’s a reach to conclude Hughes even has “problems starting.”  He only has 34 IP as a starter in each of the last 2 seasons.  Moreover, in 2009, he was a mid-3 ERA pitcher for 33 of those 34 innings; he had a one-inning blowup in Baltimore that screwed his starting-pitcher ERA for the year.  I’m not saying Hughes couldn’t stand to improve his secondary pitches (who couldn’t?), but you seem to be operating under a shaky premise.