I bet Mo will stick not sure about the rest. I have a good feeling about to Beam but I dont know why.

Okay, I know Farnsworth was super-crappy for the last 60 innings he pitched. But, isn’t he pretty underrated at this point? The NY Post refers to him as “The Mop” every single time they print his name, and here listing him as a bullpen possibility along with Chase Wright. Before last year the guy had 4 straight years of over 10k/9 with good to great k/bb ratios and very solid expected HR numbers.

I, for one, expect him to be a decent, if not integral, part of this pen.

I think you give the ball to (in descending order after Mo): Edwar, Farnsworth, Ohlendorf, Albaladejo (based on his really nice periphs from last year), Bruney (you’ll know pretty quick if he’s dominant or wild). Out of this group I think 2 or 3 will become staples. Then hopefully, Igawa or the kids (Horne, Marquez) show enough in the minors to get a shot.

Mo
Farns
Britton
Ohlendorf
Patterson
Albadalejo
Mahay

Oooh, more fun with lists!

Agreed that Farnsworth is going to be an integral part of the bullpen. So integral, I’m projecting him as my setup guy. Assuming no trades are made, I think we start the season with:

Long - Darrell Rasner
Middle - Jonathon Albaladejo
Middle - Chris Britton
Middle - Edwar Ramirez
7th/8th - Ross Ohlendorf
7th/8th - Kyle Farnsworth
Closer - Mariano Rivera

No lefty. Not a lot of experience, and in no way do I expect the bullpen to look this way even by May.

Yeah, Sean, you have to toss Ron Mahay into the mix, especially as he has narrowed his list down to two teams, one of which is the Yankees.

I’d say the guaranteed spots belong to (obviously) Mariano and Farnsworth. 

I think Farnsworth can be effective if used in the 6th or 7th innings.  I think he’s a problem for the eigth inning, because he can’t pitch back-to-back days, and I think the way the Yankees want to use their bullpen they need someone more reliable both health-wise and talent-wise in that spot.  So I consider “reliable eighth inning guy” an area of need.  I’d try to fill that slot with someone from outside the organization.

I also think the Yankees would be well-served by having a lefty in their pen, especially with Pettitte as their only lefty starter.

Ideally, I’d like to trade for Fuentes, who would kill two birds with one stone.  Couldn’t the Yankees put together a package of arms that the Rockies could use?  Like, give the Rockies their choice of three names off Abraham’s “bullpen” list, not including Horne.  Or Humberto Sanchez plus someone else?

Otherwise, I might very well bite the bullet and sign L-Viz and Mahay.  If they can be had for like 3 years at less than $5M per, I don’t think it would kill the Yankees.  I think they could get by with what they have, mind you, so I wouldn’t panic and break the bank or anything.

I’d really, really try to get Fuentes, though.

I’ve been waiting for this thread all off season, and now that it’s here, I don’t really know what to say because there are some guys I would have liked to see the Yankees get that it’s obvious they won’t. Riske and Percival were pretty much those two.

Mo and Farnsworth wil be there.

Cox is a wild card. I have no idea what he’s been post surgery - does anyone know if they have him in winter ball? The most appealing thing about him is that he throws strikes. If he’s about to get MLB hitters out to tune of a decent WHIP, he’ll be an asset. Get in there, pound the strike zone, don’t fuck around. Those are the kind of guys we need.

Sanchez, unfortunately, probably won’t have enough mustard after his TJ surgery to be of any impact.

Edwar Ramirez has the stuff to be brilliant. Hopefully he’s playing with a slider or a cutter.

Horne is another guy to watch. As I understand it, his issue is not stuff (which is borderline electric) but control, which is not good news if you’re trying to make a splash in the bullpen. He’s been trending downward the last few years but he’s still walk a guy every 2-3 innings.

I like Ohlendorff and Britton to be the glue that keeps the pen together. Do you guys realize Britton pitched 80 innings last year between AAA/MLB? So Britton likes to eat everything.. even innings.

Does anyone know the deal with Scott Pattterson? He’s put up monster WHIPs the last couple of years but barely touched AAA last year.  And his ship is sailing - he’s 28.

Veras is another guy - could be a tool, probably a dud. And he’s not getting any better.

Albaladejo I have know idea about, but let’s assume Cashman knew what he was doing. Apparently they’ve been scouting him since last year.  I don’t think we’d trade for a reliever and then never use him.. oh wait, Chris Britton.

I would say, as of right now, the Yankees need to stay out of the FA market. There’s no reason to believe a Ron Mahay or Ron Villone or Jeremy Affeldt could be any more effective than the 30 other guys they’re giving lockers to in camp, only they’ll cost millions and tie up a roster spot for years.  I like the Damaso Marte talks though, he’s been consistent. I’m not sure what he’d cost.

I place the bullpens hands in Girardi and Eiland. The tools are there, and I think that’s the best we can hope for.

As for me, I’d go with…okay, presume the hitters are the starting 9 plus Betemit, Duncan and Molina, that allows the Yankees to have a 13-man bullpen (how likely that is - I dunno).

The starting six rotation, plus Mo and Farnsworth as locks, leaves five spots.

I go with:

Edwar
Ohlendorf
Britton
Mahay
Albaladejo

Depending, of course, if Horne looks impressive in spring training. If so, I bring him up as the new Joba (and take out, I guess, Edwar)- just one inning every other day. First the sixth/seventh, and if he works out - then the eighth.

downward

downward in BB/9, as it in it’s been getting lower, not worse..

Yeah, it took me a sec when I first read it to notice you were COMPLIMENTING him.

Another thing the Yanks need to do is separate Pettitte and Wang in the rotation so that the pen does have to pitch 3-4 innings three straight days.

By the way, between Edwar and Britton the Yanks may well have the slimmest and heftiest relievers in all of baseball.

By the way, between Edwar and Britton the Yanks may well have the slimmest and heftiest relievers in all of baseball.

I wonder if they have like Streetfighter matches in the bullpen. Britton is some fat mongrol type thing that sits on you, and Edward is that skinny dude with the long arms that gets you from the other side of the screen.

I also hope they don’t touch Sanchez. If they let him do his thing, he’ll come back strong in 09 and be a Joba-esque force in the bullpen and possibly the future closer.  If the decide to move him, they’ll essentially end up with nothing from the Sheffield trade.

Did anyone see that Chris Shelton was traded?  Nice big league and minor league OPS, strong 1B ZR, hits from the right side. But we’re not interested. What?

I really doubt the Yanks would deal Sanchez.  Moreover, he won’t be all that attractive to other teams until he’s healthy enough to pitch effectively - which most likely won’t be until 2009.

does anyone know why i’ve had to manually login for the last three months

or why i didn’t try and figure it out three months ago.

Rivera
Farnsworth
Ohlendorf
Ramirez
one from Britton/Albaladejo
Rasner
a lefty or a wildcard from Marquez/Horne/Patterson

A somewhat non-committal list, but I’m thinking the bullpen needs to have guys who offer different looks - the Proctor/Farnsworth/Bruney pen provided a succession of straight fastballs - so the possibility of Edwar harnessing his changeup to max effect, Ohlendorf getting ground balls, Rasner representing a real long man for once, etc. would be appealing if they can pan out in said roles.

How Girardi handles the staff will be interesting. On the one hand he’ll almost certainly spread the workload more evenly across the pen than Torre (one would think, anyway), but he may very well have two rookies with innings caps in the rotation, as has been mentioned here several times, so he’ll be presumably have to be creative - that in of itself is something I’m looking forward to following.

One more tidbit of information: apparently, the Yanks want to sign Cashman to an extension but he has said the time isn’t right.  In reality, I suppose he wants to see how the season plays out and if Hank behaves reasonably well, he will put his name on the dotted line.

IE, I’m recalling Cashman being ready to walk out the door in the 03-ish time frame because of his displeasure with old-Stein, so your theory makes sense. He’s done the job for over a decade, I’m sure he can walk away with his millions with no regrets. And he’d probably land another job somewhere eventually.

Separately, maybe someone in Tampa could teach Igawa to rebuild his windup by studying film of Fernando Valenzuela - if he can learn to roll his eyes back into his head mid-motion I bet he’d be a killer loogy.

I caught a bit of a cold yesterday, which I only mention because it’s the main reason that today I coughed up a killer loogy.

YOU FORGOT PAVAN….....

..no, sorry, I can’t even bring myself to finish the clown’s name.

Igawa rolling eyes back with 1918 influenza?

Carl Pavano shouldn’t even be allowed in the clubhouse.

I’ll let CAIRO pick my bullpen.  The way I see it, Mo is one spot, and one of Moose, Joba, or IPK will be the long man.  I’d prefer an 11 man pitching staff but I think the Yankees will be going with 12 with the three kids in the rotation. So there’s four or five slots to fill:

Edwar (3.53 projected ERA)
Britton (3.81 projected ERA)
Veras (4.28 projected ERA)
Farnsworth (4.40 projected ERA)
Albadalejo (4.41 projected ERA)

I am fine with a Mahay signing, although hopefully not for 3 years.  If he does sign I’d probably put Veras in Scranton and wait for injuries.  I’d love to see the Farns shipped off somewhere, but I don’t think it’ll happen.  I like Edwar’s chances if he gets regular work and develops his fastball command.

where’d edwar’s 3.53 come from? i’m guessing it won’t be 8 again, but man that would be sweet

Probably his astronomical K/9

His MLEs are sick.  I don’t think he’ll do that well, but I don’t think an ERA in the 3.7 range is too unrealistic.  He has to be less predictable though.  His changeup is a legitimate 80 pitch, but if he can’t set the hitter up for it that doesn’t matter.

Mo
Marte or Guardado (no Mahay please)
Farnsworth
Britton
Ohlendorf
Albaladejo
Veras

Don’t resign Vizcaino.

It was a little mystifying to me that Britton didn’t get more of a chance last season.  He was more than decent in 50+ innings for Balt. in ‘06.  He’s my cxandidate for a breakthrough among this group.

A couple of nice articles today on the hardballtimes.  For those who want to “address” the relief problem…

Since this mighta been directed at me let me say that my idea of addressing it is not 3-year deals for the Latroys the Mahays and the Vizcainos, etc.  If however, a stud is available, a shutdown guy for the 8th inning, you’d have to give it some thought.  And in such a way that you’re serious.  Not, hey will you take a few Yankee franks for your guy who got 47 saves last year?

On the Matsui-Giants business, I like it conceptually though doubt anything will happen.

While Giambi’s contribution for 2008 is questionable, the fact that we have 3 guys splitting between 2 position (LF/DH) in Damon, Matsui and Giambi is just a waste of resources. Cashman needs to think about it like this: take Matsui’s WS (or whichever stat you like) and turn it into a piece we need of equal value.

Precisely my thinking.  It’s just plain inefficient and irritating that, with the current roster, in order to get a passable defense on the field (one that doesn’t include Giambi at 1B or Damon in CF), you have to sit down a slugger making $15+ million a year.  Depth is nice, but depth should be cost-efficient.

I’m actually surprised how many people seem to regard Giambi as the regular 1B, with Betemit and Shelley caddying.  I don’t believe it – it increases his injury risk, and the last time he played more than 78 games in the field was 2003. 

My thought is that if you somehow pull off a Matsui trade, you get your depth by signing a cheap 4th OF, preferably a right handed hitter who you wouldn’t be embarrassed to thrown out there every day in the event of injury.  Shannon Stewart comes to mind, though ideally you’d want better defense.  Corey Patterson would be more expensive, but he’s a lefty; he’d look good as a PR for Jorge in extra innings and/or Damon’s 9th inning defensive replacement.  Maybe even Bobby Kielty would fit the bill.  Don’t they have an OF glut in DC?

Of course, you don’t trade Matsui without improving the team in other areas.  And it doesn’t look like the Giants have a logical match.  I share IE’s Lowry skepticism, both because he’s not that good and he doesn’t fill a need.  Jonathan Sanchez is an interesting wild card as Wexler notes in previous thread.  Guy’s something of a potential stud, pretty well-regarded prospect.  More than a K an inning last year despite bad ERA/WHIP. 

Still there’d be too much explaining to do to trade a consistent performer like Matsui for a question mark/project.  Lowry and Sanchez both would be more like it…if you could flip Lowry for something.  Maybe to DC for Wily Mo or even Austin Kearns, either of whom would fit the 4th OF profile above.

My Bullpen After Mo:

Kyle Farnswrorth
Edwar Ramirez
Ross Ohlendorf
Jeff Karstens
Jonathan Albaladejo

Later in the season I can see Horne and Sanchez replacing Karstens in there somewhere. I think the days of the LOOGY are over now that Girardi is in there, and the days of “guys in an inflexible role” and “five pitching changes in an inning” are over.

I am lukewarm on Vizcaino myself.  His greatest asset seems to be is relative reliability—that is, the idea that it’s quite unlikely he’ll be awful. 

But this is a self-perpetuating thing with veteran, mediocre-to-decent relievers,  partly due to the small sample size that is a reliever’s single outing—usually just a few batters, sometimes one.  Managers think of veterans as reliable because they’re veterans.  Thus if they have a bad outing or two they are given a chance to redeem themselves.  So then they prove themselves “reliable” because they will certainly have a good outing soon enough.  But there seems to be little reason that a young reliever who has had some success in the minors shouldn’t, given the same latitude, also even out, eventually.  I mean, sure there are some AAAA relivers, no doubt—but that’s not what I mean.

Put it this way.  If a Girardi were to be brainwashed into thinking that, say, Veras were Vizcaino, then I’m pretty sure, given 70 appearances, Veras would seem reliable—in that he’s have more good outings than bad (which is good for the level of player we’re talking about).  He’d hold more leads than he’s blow, and he’d get out of some jams, because all mediocre-to-decent pitchers make good pitches once in a while.  He’d come across as trustworthy, gritty, etc. etc.

This, ultimately, is why paying good money for the Mahays and Vizcainos just isn’t sensible.  With the occasional exception of a middle reliever who suddenly blossoms in the role (Shields) or has a flukey season (Hammond) these guys important members of the bullpen simply because it is predetermined that they’re going to get those 70 IP in which to even their numbers out—unless they’re complete disasters.  Just think of Viz last year.  If a young pitcher making the league minimum had pitched like he did in April he would have been sent to Scranto for good, or until September.  Hell, Britton got called up and sent back down in April for no reason at all after lacing up his spikes. 

So the point is, yeah, unless there is a dominant reliever available—not Chris Hammond fluke-year-dominant, but Flash Gordon dominant—you pay him whatever he wants to set up MO.  Oterwise, try out the 19 24-yaer-old righties and hope that by July you’ve got the best ones actually on the big league club (whereas last year our AAA guys might have actually been better than Myers, Farns, etc.).

My posts are usually 2 lines long.

Just to make it clear, I don’t care one bit about the salaries.  Rather, the problem is when you’re stuck with someone for 3-4 years and they’re taking a spot where you could try out younger pitchers who could achieve the same level but have more upside.

I assume there’s some 2-word term that summarizes my tome up there.

word.

i agree with all of that Frog. there was no one impact reliever in our pen apart from you mo who and Superchief. every night was a crapshoot anyway, so we might as well take innings 6-7 as our chance to check out what we’ve got brewin’. it would be nice if we could take the 8th more seriously, but thems the breaks.

Assuming a 7 man pen.

Mussina
Albaladejo
Ohlendorf
Random loogy (Henn for now)
Horne
Farnz
Rivera

i cannot bear to see sean “white flag” henn in a serious game of baseball ever until he gets his shit together.

I read somewhere that’s Henn’s been working on his thurmball.  Unless it turns out to be effective, Thurm will eat him for breakfast.

Seriously, an ineffective loogy is much worse than no loogy.  See my post above, about taking up a roster spot.

Think of it this way, if any one of Ohlie, Alba, Veras, or Edwar pitches well enough season to stay on the staff all summer, I guarantee he’ll be better at getting out lefties than Henn would be.

i’m watching game 3 of the 98 WS. finley’s “catch” to lead off the game is pretty sweet. let’s trade for him.

hey frog, you live on the west coast? have insomnia? both?

Insomnia, sometimes self-imposed.

i feel ya

Sleep is for the weak.

this week i’ve accumulated a lot of new goodies- yankees fall classic dvd set, samsung lcd, ps3.

along with all the ajita regarding trades and such - No Life.

the really awesome thing- in my video game it’s the 5th inning, and sim Joe Torre made these bullpen moves in quick succession- TJ Beam in for Vizcaino, Sean Henn in for Beam, Bruney in for Henn, Mariano in for Henn. In the 5th inning. The realism is just incredible.

mo in bruney of course. although joe did once attempt to bring in henn for henn.

I’m sure Henn came in to get Ortiz and whiffed him.

I wish I were 6’4” and lefthanded.  I’d be making 6 digits and get to spend all that time reading on the train between Scranton and the Bronx.

actually henn tore off ross gload’s arms and beat him to death with them. then he jacked a minivan and drove to san andreas.

yeah. remember desalvo’s shtick about reading 100 books? it all makes sense now.

DeSalvo.  Henn.  Chase Wright.  Colter Bean.  T-Clip.

I really hope our current crop of AA/AAA pitchers doesn’t turn out to be crap.

Later, buddy.

yeah night

Mo
Albadalejo
Horne
Igawa
Rameriez
Farnsworth.
Britton

something like this should work.

Since this mighta been directed at me

Wasn’t directed at any *one* person in particular.  There have been several posts recently by several different people saying that the Yankees weren’t doing enough to address the bullpen.  I think that the article in particular about giving average-ish relievers long contracts was useful for the discussion.  That is, so many teams are giving out 3-4 year, expensive contracts to basically replacement-level players, that it is hard to go out and address the bullpen this time of year.

For my ideas of the bullpen…I agree they’ll probably start the season with a seven-man bullpen.  I also still think that Kennedy will either be a starter, or be in Scranton to start the season.  So for the other seven:

Rivera
Farnsworth
Britton
Edwar
Veras
Albadalejo
One of Henn/Igawa/Wright/Villone

I think having a lefty in the pen is important.  Ideally you want a Mike Stanton of the late 90’s.  But there are some left-handed batters who couldn’t hit ME if I threw lefty, but mash righties.  It is important to get them out of the game, even if you bring in the lefty and take him out w/o throwing a pitch.  I also feel that one of the above can be effective if used correctly.  That is up to Eiland/Girardi to try to get the best out of them.

To start the year:

Mariano
Farnsworthless
Britton
Albadalejo
Edwar
Ohlendorf

As this group tries to get outs, the organization can be working on Igawa as a reliever (if it doesn’t work, fine, but I think it’s worth trying), seeing how Horne is doing and pondering a Joba-like callup (or, in the case of multiple injuries, some MLB starts), and otherwise keeping tabs on the guys in the minors.  When some of the original group proves they suck, and they will, swap ‘em out.

Karstens and Rasner should be starting in AAA so they will be available as emergency starters if we get past IPK/Moose on the starter depth chart.

I think Karstens is crap who should be dfa’d if he isn’t traded.  Rasner is fine for that long relief role.  Does he have options left?

we have 3 guys splitting between 2 position

Isn’t it really four guys splitting three positions?

take Matsui’s WS (or whichever stat you like) and turn it into a piece we need of equal value

I think this could happen, but it will be pretty complex.  It sounds like the Giants asked specifically about Matsui, rather than the Yanks shopping him.  Maybe they can somehow turn it into a three- or four-way that nets them a reliable 8th inning guy, a loogy, and a solid 4th OF.

I’m actually surprised how many people seem to regard Giambi as the regular 1B, with Betemit and Shelley caddying.

Don’t we have a moral obligation to get these people the medical attention they so desperately need?

I’m pretty sure Karstens and Rasner both have one option year left.  Rasner was a September callup with the Nationals in 2005; I don’t think that burns an option.

Karstens is two years younger, and based on that alone is probably the better bet to someday get his crap together.  Just because he’s got more somedays left.

12-13: I believe Jonathan Broxton of the Dodgers is heavier than Britton by a little less than ten pounds, and the same height.  Of course, Broxton is a lot more beloved by his team’s fans.

40: I rather like Steve Finley, and the Yankees could invite him to spring training, no trade needed, but we have enough outfielders and he wants to stay in SoCal, yes?

i guarantee Finley will be on the Mitchell Report.

Most obvious Mitchel Report guy:
Pudge
Brady Anderson
Brian Giles
Luis Gonzalez
Juan Gonzalez
Jason Varitek (oh, scratch that- Mitchell works for the Boston Red Sox)

Pags - don’t forget Jay Gibbons and Jose Guillen.  They are probably locks.  If Brian Giles is a lock, I’d throw in his bro as well.

My bullpen:

Mo
Ohlendorf
Britton
Albadalejo
Edwar
White
Marte - can probably be had for Rasner/Karstens and a lower-level prospect