I was at the game yesterday and was surprised to find a lot of negativity regarding Hughes during the liveblog/game chatter when I came home. Now, my vantage point was from at an angle behind home plate, so I can’t comment on whether or not he was really missing the zone or just getting squeezed,

I said during the liveblog that I thought Hughes stuff looked good but that he was just missing his spots.  I also thought some borderline calls did not go his way.  He really didn’t get rocked at all, all things considered.

And here’s a shot from the game before.  If Fabian was in the same seats, he was in a great spot to watch Hughes pitch.

John Smoltz at age 21 put up a 5.48 ERA.  This is the majors, Hughes is going to need an adjustment period.  He’ll be fine.  The scouts say he’s going to be great and the stats back it up. 

And any Yankee fan that was shitting on Mo yesterday should go root for the Mets.

I saw as well that Vechionacci has improved, and we have to remember that he missed some time (about a month?) because of an injury.  He’s still only 20 I believe.  There’s nothing wrong if he doesn’t make the majors until he is 25; there are lots of good players that weren’t ready until they were that age.  Those players can still be good - sometimes even stars - they just don’t make the HOF.

What do we think of Alberto Gonzalez?  He’s been hitting much better since being recalled to Scranton (the double-header I attended he was hitting the ball hard all over the field), and his OPS is approaching 700.  What do we think he needs to hit to be in the mix for getting PT next year at the ML level?

And any Yankee fan that was shitting on Mo yesterday should go root for the Mets.

Now I didn’t comment on this on the blog yesterday, because I was on the way home listening to the radio.  I had a problem with Mo being in yesterday, but the problem wasn’t with Mo, it was with Torre.  As soon as I heard he was coming him I was yelling at the radio.  I just thought that Rivera could use another day off with a couple of rough outings only a few days ago.  And with Chamberlain being rested and able to go two innings (maybe even three; I don’t know if the rules allow that), I thought they were better off saving Mo.

Rivera himself?  He may have a little bit of a tired arm, and/or just going through a bad stretch.  But he’s still the man, and still one of the best in the game.

What do we think of Alberto Gonzalez?  He’s been hitting much better since being recalled to Scranton (the double-header I attended he was hitting the ball hard all over the field), and his OPS is approaching 700.  What do we think he needs to hit to be in the mix for getting PT next year at the ML level?

in theory, not much, since Jeter is such a liability at SS right now.

but in practice, it’s not going to happen, so he’ll probably have to really start hitting to get a chance. 

unless Jeter is hurt and bounces back next year, i am not at all enthused about watching a 34 year old Jeter play SS next year.

you guys on this blog really rip into jeters defense. Granted he cannot make all the plays to his left anymore he still has one of the strongest arms and goes to the right as good as any shortstop in baseball.

I also would have liked joba in the 10th. Mo definitely needs a day or two off. Maybe let vizcaino close tonight if need be and joba in the 8th? I am hoping we blow them out tonight for obvious reasons and so I can see joba pitch on friday.

“And any Yankee fan that was shitting on Mo yesterday should go root for the Mets.”
Word.  Or worse.

“What do we think of Alberto Gonzalez?”

Can’t believe the democrats rolled over and granted him even more power to spy on U.S. citizens.

“i am not at all enthused about watching a 34 year old Jeter play SS next year”
You just ruined my day. 

I’ve been saying for a year now: this is the going to be the biggest personnel issue facing the team in the next couple of of seasons.  One gets the sense that, if things were left alone, Jeter would play SS until he’s 40, thinking he’s Ozzie Guillen, and Torre would let him, thinking he’s Davy Concepción (sp?).  Torre’s job should (won’t, but should) depend on his answer to the question, “Are you willing to move Derek Jeter out of the SS position?”  If Torre is let go, that question should be one of the first put to any candidates to replace him.

Weird.  I wrote Ozzie Guillen when I totally meant Omar Vizquel.  Venezuela.

“Granted he cannot make all the plays to his left anymore he still has one of the strongest arms and goes to the right as good as any shortstop in baseball”

Interesting argument.  I wonder, are there are any numbers that support that?

you guys on this blog really rip into jeters defense. Granted he cannot make all the plays to his left anymore he still has one of the strongest arms and goes to the right as good as any shortstop in baseball.

And the sum of that skill set is a shortstop who makes fewer outs than the average one. 

Are you willing to move Derek Jeter out of the SS position?” If Torre is let go, that question should be one of the first put to any candidates to replace him.

The question is, for whom?  I don’t even know if Rodriguez can play there anymore, let alone the political issues if that was considered, and the free agent crop after there stinks.

i didnt base that on any stat rat numbers just 11 years of observation. I do think he will eventually move to the outfield though which will be a fairly easy transition for him.

“And the sum of that skill set is a shortstop who makes fewer outs than the average one” 

I dont think you can prove that. I am of the opinion that defensive stats are too subjective.

I dont think you can prove that. I am of the opinion that defensive stats are too subjective.

More subjective than your eye?  The fact that Jeter is 2nd to last in ZR among SS this season is enough for me.  Add that to “past a diving Jeter”.

The ball is at the mound before he even makes his first step.

I dont think you can prove that. I am of the opinion that defensive stats are too subjective.

What tokyojordan said.  How can you possibly say that defensive stats are subjective but your eyes aren’t?  I’ll admit they’re not perfect, but I think they’re better than the ‘my eyes tell me’ method, especially when you can’t see every play by every SS in every game.

I don’t know why we even bother with this.  The people who think Jeter is a good defender will not be convinced otherwise, and the people who believe the available statistics that show that Jeter is not a good defender will not either.  Believe what you want.  At the end of the day it only matters what the Yankees believe.

you guys on this blog really rip into jeters defense. Granted he cannot make all the plays to his left anymore he still has one of the strongest arms and goes to the right as good as any shortstop in baseball.

saying a SS can’t go to his left is like saying an OFer is pretty good at everything except catching pop flies.

we’ve been through this on this blog over and over for about 3 years now.  we have all argued at various times that Jeter’s plus arm, ability to track pop-ups, and ability to not make errors on routine or slightly difficult plays probably placed him somewhere slightly below average, which was just fine with us given his fantastic offense.  we all realized that while he was not nearly as good as the “Gold Glove” crowd thinks he is, he was also not as bad as the pitchfork wielding mob at BTF thought he was either.  and that was ok.

but this year has been different.

he’s been bad.  i see no reason to pretend that isn’t true.  it’s visible to the naked eye and it is backed up by the statistics.

but he is 33. next year he will be 34.  saying a 34 year old player should move off of SS is NOTHING to be ashamed of.  that’s what Yankee fans need to accept.  Jeter is already a Hall of Famer for what he has accomplished already.  now it is time to think about the next stage in his career.

and for the sake of winning the most games, that needs to involve playing a different position.

How do folks here feel about giving Brackman $4.55 million as he heads off to TJS?

you guys are all selling…i’m just not buying.
I have played the game for many years up to the collegiate level and observed jeter since 96 and I just do not see a problem other than his inability to get to his left. Sometimes it looks like he is afraid to dive for the ball.

How do folks here feel about giving Brackman $4.55 million as he heads off to TJS?

It’s a major gamble, but a better risk than signing a Carl Pavano I guess.  I’d rather see the Yankees invest in young, high-upside, high-risk players than major league mediocrities.

“saying a SS can’t go to his left is like saying an OFer is pretty good at everything except catching pop flies”

not really when you reread my post. He cannot make ALL the plays to his left.

furthermore, the gold glove committee, the players, and the managers all seem to think jeter is in the top 5 defensive shortstops (atleast).

Do you gentlemen really feel that you know better than professionals that have been in the game for countless years?

I know someone is ready to post something like, “well torre is a professional and cannot manage a bullpen” which is fine but when such an overwhelming consensus of industry minds agree on something it is a little different.

Not trying to start a war or say that you guys are wrong, just voicing my opinion, you can have yours and ill have mine while i watch jeter “Jump Toss” highlights on youtube.

dcristal,

Can you please explain this to me, because I’m curious.

Let’s assume that a ball that is converted into an out at least 50% of the time by a major league SS is considered a fieldable chance.  Does that sound fair to you?

Let’s say that there are three people at the ballpark scoring these chances and sitting apart from each other to help make that scoring more objective.

Now, let’s take a look at Jeter.  He’s had 391 of the chances as defined above hit to him.  He’s converted 298 of them into outs.  An average SS seeing those same 391 chances would have been expected to convert 321 into outs. 

Where’s the subjectivity there?

Even if Jeter was to move to another position, which position would be the most suited for him? He’s not going to 2nd base, Robby’s there; he’s not going to third, A-Rod is there (and hopefully in the long run); and he’s not going to center Melky is there. Even when the Yankees come around to thinking about moving Jeter, the whole outfield might possibly be vacated by Melky, Austin, and J.T. Would you replace one of those guys for Jeter? I don’t think so. My only guess is that if Carmen Angelini is the real deal, it is said that he has solid range and a player of his caliber, (crossing fingers here) is too good to leave on a bench and play part time, and so he could possibly move Jeter out of shortstop. The thing is: are the Yankees willing to move the face of the franchise to another position? I say no unless someone (Carmen) able to press the issue.

Another question: Out of the 3 catcher prospects (Romine, Montero & Weems) who do you guys think has the most upside? With this I mean defensively and offensively.

How do folks here feel about giving Brackman $4.55 million as he heads off to TJS?

i trust that Oppenheimer knows what he is doing.

remember when EVERYONE here flipped out on draft day b/c they didn’t take Harvey?

Harvey didn’t sign.

i think Oppenheimer has earned the benefit of the doubt.

also, what do i care about the money?  it sounds like the rest of their picks were signed for above slot, but nothing jaw-dropping.

it is obvious to be me that a few million here or there will not stop the Yankees from doing ANYTHING they really want to. 

so roll the dice, the upside is just great to pass up.

this assumes that all of these chances are carbon copies of one another and that is not the case.
It is a valid statistic, however does it address the following issues
how a defense is positioned, how hard the ball is hit, whether a lefty or righty hit it, whether it was hit off a lefty or righty, how “fast” the infield is.
Every play is unique in some respect and I don’t think lumping them all together and saying this is fieldable and this is not is completely objective.
I am not saying these factors would change ZR significantly, but they do add some subjectivity to the stat.

Stand by your stat fellas, but I am just not convinced.

I know someone is ready to post something like, “well torre is a professional and cannot manage a bullpen” which is fine but when such an overwhelming consensus of industry minds agree on something it is a little different.

actually, an overwhelming consensus of industry minds DO agree on Jeter’s defense. 

UZR, the Fielding Bible, ZR, RZR.

there are MANY MANY people spending countless hours studying defense.

they all come to the same conclusions.

i trust them more than i trust what Ozzie Guillen thinks seeing Jeter 7 times a year.

This may sound odd, but is their any chance that the Yankees specifically target players who are going to get TJ surgery?  The track record for pitchers who have the surgery indicates that pitchers pick up a few mph on their fastballs.  Also, for someone who is still young, it’s not the worst situation to have them sit out a year. 

I’m just wondering if teams may be looking at this procedure as a positive as opposed to as a red flag.

It’s not just stats.  I watch nearly every game and I see the plays he misses.  Plays other SS’s make.  Routinely. 

It’s the plays up the middle.  To his left.  That’s a critical part of a SS’s defense, and Jeter’s bad at it.  It’s maybe a single or two a week, but over the course of a season it adds up and it makes him below-average.  He makes his fair share of errors too.

But he hits a ton and he’s the Captain.  I wouldn’t have it any other way.

but in practice, it’s not going to happen, so he’ll probably have to really start hitting to get a chance

Oh I didn’t mean to start over Jeter.  I was thinking more of being considered the favorite to be the utility-infielder next year.  I figure if he gets his OPS up to 800 (not likely, but bear with me), he HAS to be the favorite to be that, and Cashman will plan his roster moves accordingly.  If he slumps again and finishes under 600, I expect Cashman would either acquire another utility IF, or acquire a first-baseman and just try to find a way to get Betemit enough at-bats.

There are lots of other factors too of course.  Does ARod stay?  Whether ARod stays or not, what happens to Jeter?  It is most likely that he will stay at SS, but I’m sure he could be moved.  I’m just wondering what the consensus is for what Alberto would need to hit, in order for him to be in the mix for a roster-spot.

i am going with individuals IN the game who PLAYED the game as opposed to a bunch of nerds studying jeters pirouets. This conversation started in reference to

“unless Jeter is hurt and bounces back next year, i am not at all enthused about watching a 34 year old Jeter play SS next year.”

And if you think there is a better SS solution for this year or next you are wrong, wait let me guess, you want to put betemit out there, dont you?

I never said jeter was the best in the league my original comment:
“you guys on this blog really rip into jeters defense. Granted he cannot make all the plays to his left anymore he still has one of the strongest arms and goes to the right as good as any shortstop in baseball.”
which is true, you guys talk like he is chuck knoblauch.

you can take your pretty little artificial stats and do all you want with them because jeter will be the 6 in the 6-4-3 for atleast 2 more seasons

yup.

i am going with individuals IN the game who PLAYED the game as opposed to a bunch of nerds studying jeters pirouets. This conversation started in reference to

and there it is.  every Jeter argument goes exactly the same way.

the final BS non-argument in the 5 stages of grieving over Jeter’s defense:
1. i watch the games, you don’t
2. i played the game, you didn’t
3. i think the gold glove voters know more than you do
4. the stats are broken/too subjective

and finally

5.  you guys are nerds

Re: Jeter’s defense…back when he first came up, he wasn’t a bad defender.  Somewhere here SG has the numbers in +/-...but I’m not going to find them now.  I think through 1999 he was basically +/- 3 or 4 runs a year.  One year he may have been a little more negative.  And the thing is, Jeter doesn’t really LOOK any different now than he did back then.  So sure, I think you (meaning anyone) could have gotten the early impression that he was a pretty good defender, and since he looks the same now, well…

Unfortunately, starting in I think 2000, DJ went through a stretch where he was bad.  Horrendously bad.  For four years.  After that, from 2004-2006, he was pretty good again (though trending downward).  In fact, I think if he was playing D as well this year as last, you wouldn’t here *too* much complaining.  But this year he’s just bad. 

Part of it may be injury, true.  Part too may be positioning as well.  For the injury point though, it is unlikely he is going to be able to be LESS injured in coming years.  Positioning…if it is Torre/Yankee coaches who are putting him where he is, and/or not correcting him if they know better, then sure, maybe he can improve with a new coaching staff.  As much as I love Jeter though, I think the BEST you could expect from him for the next three years is to be about -10 runs per year.  Which given how well he hits is still OK.  But shouldn’t stop a better defender from playing there.

Where should Jeter move?  If ARod goes, third-base.  If ARod stays either RF or 1B.  I hate to waste Jeter’s athleticism at first, but he hits well enough to play there and be about average, and I think he would be an excellent defender there.

And if you think there is a better SS solution for this year or next you are wrong, wait let me guess, you want to put betemit out there, dont you?

uh, no.

but moving Betemit to 3B, A-Rod to SS, and Jeter to 1B *would* be a better solution.

but whatever.

i am going with individuals IN the game who PLAYED the game as opposed to a bunch of nerds studying jeters pirouets.

Are these the same guys who PLAYED IN the game who thought Tony Womack was a good signing when all the nerds were telling them what a shitty signing it was?  How about Jaret Wright?  How about Carl Pavano?  How about Wil Nieves?  How about Bubba Crosby?  How about…

Just because someone PLAYED IN the game, it doesn’t mean their talent evaluation is infallible.  Far from it actually, as the Gold Glove voting will clearly attest to.  Not just for Jeter, but historically.

Unfortunately, starting in I think 2000, DJ went through a stretch where he was bad.  Horrendously bad.  For four years.  After that, from 2004-2006, he was pretty good again (though trending downward).  In fact, I think if he was playing D as well this year as last, you wouldn’t here *too* much complaining.  But this year he’s just bad. 

right.  this was exactly my point in #16.

i’m not one of the ones demanding he move b/c of his 2005-2006 level of “bad”.  like i said, he wasn’t as good as some people thought, but not as bad as others thought either.

but this year, he blows.

and unless it is directly attributable to an injury, he WILL be even worse next year.  that’s all i meant.

i am going with individuals IN the game who PLAYED the game as opposed to a bunch of nerds studying jeters pirouets

Those same individuals that gave Palmiero the GG over Tino when he Palmiero played more at DH?

“but moving Betemit to 3B, A-Rod to SS, and Jeter to 1B *would* be a better solution.”

Ok so put one of the fastest on the team as an anchor on first base. Then put a-rod back to a position where he has not played since 2003. Why are we talking about girardi and mattingly, You are clearly the best managerial candidate.

Cashman signed those players, I dont remember him in pinstripes or any uniform. I am not saying their talent evaluation is infallible. I am saying I trust and respect their opinions more than people on the outside looking in (like ourselves).
You guys just love to argue and will take anything out of context to try make yourselves look like the most knowledgable blogger alive.

until jeter is out of the hole, your talent evaluation means squat.

I agree the gold glove committee is political, I was referring more to the players and managers

yup.

the final BS non-argument in the 5 stages of grieving over Jeter’s defense:
1. i watch the games, you don’t
2. i played the game, you didn’t
3. i think the gold glove voters know more than you do
4. the stats are broken/too subjective

and finally

5.  you guys are nerds

Apparently yup forgot there is a #6

6. You guys are idiots.

Ok so put one of the fastest on the team as an anchor on first base.

what does it matter if he is fast if his first step is painfully slow?

are you saying play him in CF?  ok, that would work too.

I agree the gold glove committee is political, I was referring more to the players and managers

who do you think votes on the Gold Gloves? just mangers and coaches.  there is no “committee”.

until jeter is out of the hole, your talent evaluation means squat.

where did i ever say it didn’t mean “squat”.  of course it means squat.  i’m just some moron on the internet.

but that doesn’t mean jeter isn’t costing the team runs.

i guess your next post will be that i’m gay.

i think in 3-4 years i see jeter in left. I do not know why, I just feel like that is the spot for him. But for now I he stays at SS.
I understand who votes on the gloves, I think when they fill out the card it gets more political than honest.

The runs he is costing us he is making up for with his bat (and his ability to pull A++ ass). Yes you could get that bat while playing 1b but there would be some “growing pains” with a dramatic defensive switch like that.

I dont think your gay as you obviously dont have the mancrush on jeter that this whole city does.

I see his defensive ability as somewhere between what you and the rest of the city thinks

I might be more willing to engage dcristal in a debate, but it is pretty clear he’s got some issues with civil communication.

yup.

lick my nuts.

yup.

nothing makes the work day go by faster than e-arguments. Without me this thread would have gotten like 12 comments today, so your welcome.

I agree with dcristal because that is pretty much reality.  Yankees ain’t going to do anything with Jeter, and that’s pretty much it.  I do think his defense sucks though, it’s actually painful to watch, hurts the pitching, and hurts the Yankee’s chance of winning (though negated by his mighty bat and calm peaceful eyes).  Saying Jeter’s defense is acceptable based on personal observation is… uh, I don’t know what to say.

If I were the Yankees, get someone to position him better.  Bowa was a SS, and I think the improved defense in the recent past can probably attributed to better positioning, so keep at it.  Don’t relent once Jeter becomes sort of average on defense.  That’s probably my same complaint with Posado’s ability to throw out runners, what happen to his terrific arm from last year?

And I see Jeter eventually moving to left field too.  Where else would a 35+ year old Jeter play if not LF, by 35+ Jeter is going to have an arm like Damon and Bernie.  Keep Cabrera in CF or RF, and find a good bat in CF or RF after Abreu leaves.

I dont think your gay as you obviously dont have the mancrush on jeter that this whole city does.

well, out of this whole debate, this was a pretty good line.

“i am going with individuals IN the game who PLAYED the game as opposed to a bunch of nerds studying jeters pirouets. “

Is dcristal trolling, because this sounds like total parody. I mean, people don’t REALLY say this, right? This is some BTF poster or SOSHer trying to ruffle featers, right?

Jeez, dcristal, nobody thinks defensive stats are perfect, but how can you not agree with people that observation is a terribly flawed method of judging fielding. Hell, even without the stats, based on observation alone, Jeter is clearly sub-par. Whoever said above that the ball is past the pitchers mound before he makes his first step is 100% on. Jeter was never great, but as his athleticism and speed decline with age he becomes even more and more of a liability.

Why not trust the nerds? I’m not saying TangoTiger or whoever knows more about baseball than Ozzie Guillen or whatever, but a lot of smart people have put a lot of hard work into these defensive metrics, and they’ve watched a hell of a lot of baseball doing it. If Jeter is not converting balls in play into outs, that’s a quantifiable, compeltely objective piece of evidence. Maybe it doesn’t “prove” anything, given some of the caveats you point out, but I don’t see a shread of counterweight evidence to suggest that Jeter is even an average shortstop, other than the observational claims of some who can’t possibly be judging him systematically against other shortstops (if you’re a yankee fan and watch Jeter play 100 times a year, you’re definitely not watching the other 30 shortstops in MLB play that many times).

well, out of this whole debate, this was a pretty good line.

Great, now you are just encouraging him/her.

Sometimes it looks like he is afraid to dive for the ball.

“past a diving Jeter” - I think Jeter has the diving part down.

“by 35+ Jeter is going to have an arm like Damon and Bernie”

You think so?  I think both Bernie and Damon had bad arms at the start of their careers (which then turned horrendous).

Do fielders’ arms age dramatically?  Anyone recall any studies of that?

The most important comp. to make, of course, would be with someone like Yount.  How was his arm in his late career?

You think so?  I think both Bernie and Damon had bad arms at the start of their careers (which then turned horrendous).

Okay Frog, I also don’t think Jeter has that strong of an arm either.  Or I don’t remember, the jump throw notwithstanding, seeing much to think it’s especially strong.

You have to give Cashman credit for not going out and signing a “DH” in the past few years.  While the Red Sox are forced to keep Manny (a disaster defensively) the Yankees can at least rotate differnt players through the DH spot. 

Looking ahead- gotta figure Giambi fills the DH roll next year.  Damon (if he’s still here- which I think is unlikely) fills it the year after.  Seems like that DH spot is going to be crowded for a few years, depending on the declines defensively of Posada (assuming he resigns), Matsui, ARod and Jeter…

How about Edwar?  Really nice to see him get in the game.  Farnsworth who?

i hope you all know that the god king derek jeter will be bangin out all your mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, and daughters…..to the left side

ya gotta be pious

Another question: Out of the 3 catcher prospects (Romine, Montero & Weems) who do you guys think has the most upside? With this I mean defensively and offensively.

Interesting tidbit on the FAN, Cashman in an interview just stated that should A-Rod opt out, the Yankees will not have the $30 million from the Rangers and will likely not participate in the free agency bidding for his services. Most likely 90% negotiating tactics, but I can also see how adding $30M/year with Giambi, Mussina and Jeter still on the payroll and Mo and Posada needing to be signed would not make financial sense. I hope they can get someone good with that sandwich pick next year.

“Okay Frog, I also don’t think Jeter has that strong of an arm either.”

This is nuts. Jeter has a plus arm for SS. His arm translates as well above average in left field. You don’t remember any of the guy’s relay throws?  The reason he can do the jump throw is because of his arm. You ever see Lugo try and do that? As it is, he’s got the third strongest arm on the team (yeah, I’d take his over Abreu’s). He should be in right next year, but that will never happen. He will never, ever have an arm as bad as Damon’s or Bernie’s, at least, not until he’s 50 something.

Fabian, your take on Austin Jackson is a bit bizarre, as was the case a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago, when Jackson had the temerity to slump below .400 and settle in the .360 area, you proclaimed a slump. It wasn’t.

Now he does have his first high A slump and you act as if he lost something. That he is still batting around .320 in a very tough league is reason to be happy, not negative. So let’s see how Jackon finishes up the 2007 season before putting any negative spin on his year.

the only reason why he needs to jump throw is because he can’t get to the ball in time at the hole so he has to throw his whole body at the ball and his momentum takes him backward. Do you guys see Jose Reyes or even Miguel Tejada have to do that? No, because they get there in time and don’t have to look so flashy. But I still like Jeter. He just is a pain to watch when he plays the field.

I can’t imagine that Alex would opt out and expect to return to the Yankees unless Boras thinks Cash would spend significantly more than the current contract + extension offer in a moment of desperation, which seems very unlikely.

That’s probably my same complaint with Posado’s ability to throw out runners, what happen to his terrific arm from last year?

IIRC, earlier in the year they said the Yankees timed Posada’s throws to second, i.e. from the time the ball hits his glove until the time the fielder has the ball.  Supposedly, the time is outstanding.  IOW, the problem isn’t with Posada, it is with the pitchers.

or even Miguel Tejada have to do that

Actually, Tejada did it just the other day to get out I think ARod.  Wasn’t *quite* the jump-turn Jeter does, but similar.  The point is, Jeter has the arm to play any of the OF spots, or third.

I dislike the Brackman deal. They gave him a ML contract (based on several public sources saying so) and he is now on the 40 man roster. That he had virtually no leverage with the Yankees is mind numbing. And he still has a tender elbow, he said so yesterday.

Plus, he was not all too impressive in college, and needs major work on his mechanics. Being 6’ 10 means years from ML service but with a ML deal.

Basically that is what Ca$hman said. If Alex opts out, he’s an ex-Yankee player.

Trailing 12-0, Joe Torre goes to his bullpen for Luis Vizcaino in the 9th.

Sorry, I’m still boiling over that one. Did it have any impact on using Mo instead of Luis in the 10th yesterday? Probably not….but if it did…..

Watching Edwar yesterday I can’t help but wonder who in the world thought Brower was a better addition to the club then him. Torre said pregame he had better contol of his fastball in the minors now; how would he know Torre never gave him a chance to pitch.  The other inane Torreism was even if Mo was NA Joba would not close since he lacks the experience.

That he had virtually no leverage with the Yankees is mind numbing. And he still has a tender elbow, he said so yesterday.

i think he had leverage.

the leverage comes from:
1. the Yankees love his talent and wanted him signed
2. the Yankees preferred Brackman to getting the 30th pick next year b/c the feel Brackman is a top 5 talent.
3. Boras also represents A-Rod and the Yankees need to play nice

i understand the agita with the contract, i do. 

but in the end, the yankees added another potentially devastating arm to their system and i am happy with that. the money won’t be more than a blip on the radar, since they are paying out his bonus over 5 years.

think about the dreck the yankees have had on the 40 man over the last 5 years.  i’d rather roll the dice on Brackman if that means a Chase Wright gets lost in the rule V draft.

if he needs surgery, he’ll go to the 60 day DL and off the 40 man. if he misses enough time to the DL, he’ll get a 4th option year.

the fact that Oppenheimer said a month ago that they wanted to sign him even if he needed surgery told be all about how they feel about his potential.  they love it.  i’m just going to trust them for now. 

he might be a bust, but he might be a righty Randy Johnson.  the odds are probably 95% weighted towards bust, but the upside of that 5% is so high, you take the chance.

If Brackman does need Tommy John surgery, he won’t be pitching until 2009. With a ML contract.

Do you really believe there is a quid pro quo for Alex? I don’t. Bora$$ doesn’t operate that way.

Brackman had no leverage. Return to college baseball and perhaps needing major surgery? That isn’ leverage. Add in his height, which is a detriment. His mechanics need major work and he was not all that impressive in college.

All that and he’s on the 40 man roster. Glad you like it. I think it stinks.

Watching Edwar yesterday I can’t help but wonder who in the world thought Brower was a better addition to the club then him.

apparently Gene Michael recommended Brower.

Should Duncan get some ABs at 1b until/if they find the hole in his swing or is he a total butcher in the field.

This is nuts. Jeter has a plus arm for SS. His arm translates as well above average in left field.

I am more than willing to say I have it absolutely wrong.  Throwing to first, Jeter’s throw often don’t seem to have a lot of zip to it.  I don’t frequently get the wow, that was rifled to 1st impression.  So my subjectivity is probably way off. 

<Jeter diss>However, he got to more plays, then probably I would have more chances to see his plus arm.</Jeter diss> 

IIRC, earlier in the year they said the Yankees timed Posada’s throws to second, i.e. from the time the ball hits his glove until the time the fielder has the ball.  Supposedly, the time is outstanding.  IOW, the problem isn’t with Posada, it is with the pitchers.

Okay, checking stats first, Jorge always had not great throwing out baserunner %.  I took last year as maybe someone working with him to improve something.  % wise, this is probably Jorge’s worst in throwing out runners.  So… I don’t know.  I am sure the pitchers are largely at fault.  But Jorge must had some thing different last year, which isn’t evident this year.

Do you really believe there is a quid pro quo for Alex? I don’t. Bora$$ doesn’t operate that way.

yeah, this is probably a long shot.

All that and he’s on the 40 man roster. Glad you like it. I think it stinks.

i don’t “like” it.  it’s not ideal.  but i’d rather they signed him to this deal then not sign him.  that’s what it comes down to. 

that, and i think Oppenheimer deserves the benefit of the doubt.

Fabian, your take on Austin Jackson is a bit bizarre, as was the case a few weeks ago. A few weeks ago, when Jackson had the temerity to slump below .400 and settle in the .360 area, you proclaimed a slump. It wasn’t.

Now he does have his first high A slump and you act as if he lost something. That he is still batting around .320 in a very tough league is reason to be happy, not negative. So let’s see how Jackon finishes up the 2007 season before putting any negative spin on his year.

Don…saying someone is slumping doesn’t mean they suck. I even made sure to note that Jackson’s had a very nice year.

Until Tabata’s wrist is fully healed and he plays like it, Jackson is the organization’s best position prospect.

Count me as one not in love with the Brackman deal. Talent-wise, I’ll defer to Oppenheimer & the amatuer scouting department. They’ve gotten a lot right in the last two years. I just can’t fathom how a guy who needs surgery and would fall considerably in the draft next year (and even the year after) had he not signed was able to command the money and the ML deal that he got.

Someone asked a question about Romine, Weems and Montero and their upside…yeesh. Only Montero has played pro-ball, and at rookie-level for that matter. At his size and age, it’s been said ad-naseum, he may not stick at C and will need his bat to carry him.

The other guys, you can only go off scouting reports. BA had a little writeup today that I’d direct you to:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/?p=213

I personally like Frank Cervelli. He’ll be in AA next year and may move quickly. He’s certainly elevated his prospect status a lot this year in Tampa, hitting .280/.387/.397 with 24 2B, 2 3B and 2 HR. All in a league, park and position that supresses offense.

Brackman’s leverage was basketball.

I don’t know whether Francisco Cervelli will move quickly but he’s certainly the best catching prospect the Yanks currently have in their system.  Especially encouraging is the fact that he’s had such a nice year at the age of 21.  As for Brackman, he’s very much the high risk/high reward proposition the Yanks have been increasingly willing to gamble on.  I’m not quite sure why Brackman (or Boras) insisted on a major league contract but I have no problem with the Yanks overpaying a bit for guys with a high upside.

Giambi at 1b, Matsui dh, Damon lf, no Mo tonight and maybe tomorrow

Mariano’s problem is not a lack of rest.  He hasn’t been overused.  Rather, he’s just not pitching well.  Yesterday, for example, Mariano was pitching having had the previous night off.  In any case, Torre has clearly stacked up the bats against Detroit’s best pitcher.  If Mussina can avoid letting Sheffield (aka, the only patient hitter in Detroit’s lineup) hurt him, I think he’ll be all right.

Giambi at 1b, Matsui dh, Damon lf, no Mo tonight and maybe tomorrow

Torre with the imagination/creative thing working.

Fabian, I did not say, nor (I hope) implied, that you said Jackson sucked. But when he went from .400 to around .360 you posted that he was in a slump. Of course he really wasn’t, unless you expected him to hit around .400 for the season. Now that he has his first legitimate slump, was it really necessary to put even a slight negative spin on it? Now if he slumps the remainder of his games in Tampa, then we have a slight cause for concern.

Austin Jackson is a work in progress, no doubt, and a long road from Tampa to Yankee Stadium. But again, unless he slumps the rest of the way, it was a breakout season for him.

I guess we both have the same take on his 2007 season but in different words.

How about a 40 year old Jeter taking the mound? He has a strong arm, and Mariano can tutor him on the ways of the cut fastball in side bullpen sessions. I am picturing Jeter vs. Reyes in Shea stadium, jeter striking him out on three pitches. that would be so sick.

I have no problem with the Yanks overpaying a bit for guys with a high upside.

Neither do I. Not in the slightest. In fact, it’s quite nice that they’re doing it…it’s why we have Austin Jackson, Joba Chamberlain, Dellin Betances, Mark Melancon and David Robertson, among others. I guess I’m just bitter that Scott Boras is so damn good at what he does. And I say that totally aware that he represents a certain third baseman of ours.

Brackman had no leverage with basketball, unless by that you mean the CBA.

The spike in Jackson’s power numbers, for me, is one of the biggest reasons for optimism.  On the whole, he’s a 20 year old who is doing very well in a pitching oriented league.  The question now is whether to start him in AA next season.  If all goes well, he could debut in pinstripes by 2010, along with Francisco Cervelli and José Tabata.  Of course, the Yanks would require a different manager in order to play so many guys who lack “experience.”

George — None of those players got a ML cotract. Nor the money upfront, nor other performance bonuses. This was way more than overpaying a bit.

Brackman is already taking up a spot on the 40 man roster. That is dumb.

I’m not crazy about the ML contract, but let’s be honest - there are some dregs on that 40 man roster, including Kevin Reese and Juan Miranda.  Carrying Brackman, while far from optimal, certainly won’t hinder the team to any great degree.  Moreover, as yup astutely pointed out, if he has TJ surgery, he can be moved to the 60 day DL and hence won’t take up a spot.

IE —  That really isn’t fair to Torre. The team has plugged-in Cano and Melky the past few seasons. Two of eight position players says to me that Torre is willing to play young guys.

Yeah, if he has TJ he won’t take up a spot on the 40 man roster. Then you’re dealing with a 6’10 pitcher, with bad mechanics, who wont be pitching until 2009. Either way, to me, it made no sense. But his ‘clock’ is still running as far as ML ‘service’, if I am correct.

Betances, years younger, has messed up mechanics as well. And all that work he put in this year got him a sore arm and he has missed much of the NYP League schedule. But Betances is three plus years younger and isn’t on the 40 man roster.

Cano was “plugged-in” at Cashman’s insistence after the team got off to a horrible start in 2005 while Melky played only because of the injuries to Matsui and Sheffield not due to any sort of out of the box thinking on Torre’s part.  We should also remember that Torre had a fetish last year for Terrence Long.  Further, Torre’s reluctance to use Edwar Ramirez is just inexcusable - especially given the fact that the bullpen is clearly the team’s weakest spot.

Betances is 19.  I don’t know how old Brackman is, but I doubt that he’s already 22.

We’ve been down that road regarding Edwar. Torre admitted he was wrong in not using him. Game, set, match.

If Sheffield and Matsui had not been injured nobody would have sat either one for Melky. They have worked Melky into the lineup quite beautifully, easing him in as it were. Well done all around with Cano and Melky.

Brackman will turn 22 in early December.

Brackman has had less than a solid career in college, average at best, and that is being kind.

“Torre admitted he was wrong in not using him.”

Source please.

Torre said it on WFAN on the Mike and Mad Dog show a few weeks ago. I heard it, I am the source.

He did say this elsewhere as well.

there are some dregs on that 40 man roster, including Kevin Reese and Juan Miranda.

Reese has no business on a 40-man roster, but what are you talking about Miranda? He’s hit very well in his first year in pro ball. He’s a little old for the leagues, but only because he was a Cuban defector who signed in December. He’ll be in AAA next year and, possibly, the majors.

Yeah, I’m shocked Brackman got as great a deal as he did. I don’t mean this in the Primer/BTF sense either. Brackman is the highest of risks. But, hey, I hope they saw something with that they can fix as well as they fixed Joba.

George — None of those players got a ML cotract. Nor the money upfront, nor other performance bonuses. This was way more than overpaying a bit.

Yeah, I know that. I never insuated those guys got big league deals. This is, I believe, the 1st ML contract the Yankees have given to a draftee (they’ve given ML contracts to Wily Mo Pena, Andy Morales and Juan Miranda, as well as Henson after he was traded back to us). And I know it was overpaying by a lot, which is why I said it bothered me a bit.

What doesn’t bother me in the least is the Yankees utilizing their financial strength by signing guys above slot like they did this year with Brad Suttle and Carmen Angelini…but not giving them ML contracts and a spot on the 40-man. Drafting where we do every year, near the bottom of the 1st round, it’s a sound manipulation of the system that lets us add the type of talent to our system that, oh, say the Royals, can add to theirs.

That Torre admitted he was wrong does not negate the fact that he did it.  It was atrocious management of an asset the organization handed him, plain and simple, whatever apologies Saint Joe says to the press.  Game, set, match.

But as he mentioned before, Don, Cano only started because Torre was FORCED to use him. So you can’t credit Torre for Cano.

Melky, sure.

But his ‘clock’ is still running as far as ML ‘service’, if I am correct.

actually, i think you are incorrect.

anyone here can jump in if i am wrong, but getting a ML contract is not the same as accruing ML service time.

Juan Miranda was given a major league deal, but he does NOT have any major league service time.

the yankees still control brackman for 6 full years of major league service.

is this your big objection with the deal?

all a major league deal does is eliminate that time that a club has before they are forced to put you on the 40 man roster to avoid the rule V draft.

in Brackman’s case, it’s not a HUGE deal.  if he’s goes on the DL, he’s not on the 40 man and he should get another option year.

if he’s not on the DL and not in the bigs by 2011, then he is probably a bust anyway.

i would say the major league deal given to a HS arm like Porcello is a lot crazier than this deal.

On a few things.

1.Hughes: don’t worry me much, for one he’s k/9 is over 9 if you havn’t noticed, and he had really no chance of building up armstrength this year. the only thing that i want to see him is him being a little more consistent with his control espically later on in the game, he flash brilliant laser control a lot early in the game, but then loses it quiet often later on.

2.Jeter : dcristal got completley beat on a silly Andy Phillips is a every day 1B and Wilson Betemit is a AAAA player and pretty much made the same ridiculas reactions, it’s hard to have any intellegent debate with him lets just say it mildly.

almost every defensive stats out there say that Jeter is an abomination at SS , a few says he’s average / slightly above average. (BP for example have always been somewhat kind to him) maybe it has to do with him positioning also? i’m not sure, but there’s simply too many past a diving Jeter to really think he’s more towards above average than below.

3.Brackman: questionable deal, but i suppose the team knows what we don’t, most of the deals we’ve questioned them came back to prove that they knew what they were doing. and as other pointed out, even if he busts, it’s still a lot less painful than Carl Pavano / Kei Igawa, as for why the Yankees seem to like to draft people with TJ worries, it might be a market deficency that they think is out there, too many teams shying away from big time talent that have health risk when more often than not they still pan out.

4.Miranda : he hasn’t hit lefties at all this year. but otherwise been pretty darn good. but it’s not like Yankees need any more righty mashers, Wilson Betemit does that perfectly fine and probably better in every sense to Miranda. (more power, more walks, much better defense )